p2pfan
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Post by p2pfan on Sept 8, 2021 20:12:19 GMT
One aspect of this I find particularly galling is that, given how much AF's companies were into Gr**ns*ll for, and that went tits up in March, is it just coincidence that from April onwards we got a vast slew of loans to F***power all in quick succession. Almost as if they were trying to get as much in as possible from Ablrate lenders before their exposure to Gr**ns*ll became the issue it now is. Had I been aware of their extensive links to Gr**ns*ll then I would not have lent more to F***power over the past five months. I, too, would not have loaned my money had I been made fully aware of the Gr**ns*ll situation. Yes, it was briefly mentioned in the documentation, but not the severity of the situation or that it would lead to issues. That has only been disclosed now, after they've borrowed hundreds of thousands of pounds in the last few months with one loan launch after another. I do feel that we've been severely misled. It's obvious now that the avalanche of new F***power loan launches was to support a struggling business network. Now lenders are left in a stressful situation.
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dave4
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Cynical is a hobby not a lifestyle
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Post by dave4 on Sept 8, 2021 20:50:20 GMT
As covered in posts above the info was there "maybe not as comprehensive as it could have been" did anyone Raise a Query??? or ask for more info? i didn't. In hind site maybe i should have. I do feel that the #100165 raise being so close to the report of a Banking issue and then suspension ect could do with justifying. It dose i feel raise questions of platform / lender trust that could do with putting to bed asap. Yes this is a stress full situation for all, and how it is handled by Abl and Andrew and the outcome will speak volumes.
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blender
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Post by blender on Sept 8, 2021 21:42:58 GMT
Too true this is a serious issue for the platform. Only 25 loans are now trading on ASMX out of 68. There will be a substantial hit on fee income. And the rest. I am assuming that the suspension of trading of all loans (all that has been done so far) is a temporary measure to provide a breathing space. Many of these loans are unconnected, except through shareholding, and the contracts with the borrowers are entirely separate legally and contractually. For example my greatest holding is in the leisure resort, which is an SPV which has nothing to do with Fp. Fp is a holding company for the energy related businesses. They just happen to have the same owner as the resort SPV but that is of no contractual importance to us. We lend to a borrower which is legally responsible for the loan. The security is tied to individual loans, and that's not negotiable. I expect that separate parts of the owner's interests will require separate solutions with different timecales - the common problem to be resolved is one of credit lines (which can be described as a banking issue) and cash flow.
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tony9239
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Post by tony9239 on Sept 10, 2021 9:47:40 GMT
One aspect of this I find particularly galling is that, given how much AF's companies were into Gr**ns*ll for, and that went tits up in March, is it just coincidence that from April onwards we got a vast slew of loans to F***power all in quick succession. Almost as if they were trying to get as much in as possible from Ablrate lenders before their exposure to Gr**ns*ll became the issue it now is. Had I been aware of their extensive links to Gr**ns*ll then I would not have lent more to F***power over the past five months. Sorry but the problems with Gr**ns*ll were spelled out in a notice from the Chairman of 23 July, and the statement was added to the documents of all the tranches of Fp to that date. In the last 2 tranches the statement was included in the borrowing proposal - page 11 in the latest loan. You would be aware of the issue for any investment made after 23 July. And ablrate would say you also had the choice to trade any earlier loans on the SM, at a small profit, if you were not content with the statement. You have to read the documents, then you would be aware. But yes, it would seem that these tranches have supported cash flow for the group. I have to note that ablrate says nothing about the drawdown of 165 - which should not have happened, imo. But that notice from the Chairman of 23 July is hardly full of red flags & alarm bells. In contrast, he describes the Gr**ns*ll situation as an opportunity to " buy back
the debt at a discount of which we have already secured through a number of known financial sources". To be honest though, rather than trying to interpret statements & notices, for me this is more a matter of trust. And it does appear that there was a mad scramble to rake in funds from Ablrate lenders with a succession of F***power loans without sufficient flagging up of the Gr**ns*ll issue. And it appears Ablrate was complicit in that scramble.
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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Sept 10, 2021 10:09:16 GMT
I am inclined to wait for more details and the plan going forward before making much comment on the position.
What is beyond doubt is that 165 will be an albatross around the neck of Ablrate unless some worthwhile explanation is offered.
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jonno
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nil satis nisi optimum
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Post by jonno on Sept 10, 2021 11:38:14 GMT
I am inclined to wait for more details and the plan going forward before making much comment on the position. What is beyond doubt is that 165 will be an albatross around the neck of Ablrate unless some worthwhile explanation is offered. My worry is that Ablrate are nurturing a growing flock of albatrosses (...trossi?) dating back to containers, portfolio et al, and at that point the birds in question seem to miraculously turn into ostriches.
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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Sept 10, 2021 11:50:53 GMT
I am inclined to wait for more details and the plan going forward before making much comment on the position. What is beyond doubt is that 165 will be an albatross around the neck of Ablrate unless some worthwhile explanation is offered. My worry is that Ablrate are nurturing a growing flock of albatrosses (...trossi?) dating back to containers, portfolio et al, and at that point the birds in question seem to miraculously turn into ostriches. Albatrosses is correct, but given your expansion maybe Abltrosses
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tony9239
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Post by tony9239 on Sept 10, 2021 14:30:37 GMT
I am inclined to wait for more details and the plan going forward before making much comment on the position. What is beyond doubt is that 165 will be an albatross around the neck of Ablrate unless some worthwhile explanation is offered. My worry is that Ablrate are nurturing a growing flock of albatrosses (...trossi?) dating back to containers, portfolio et al, and at that point the birds in question seem to miraculously turn into ostriches. Couldn't agree more. Out of my 21 loans here, some 16 are now "non-performing" and, of the remaining five, two are currently interest only (should be amortising), one is nearly always late with his payments, and one hasn't actually drawn down yet. Leaves just one that has no issues - yet. It reminds me of 2018 & 2019 when Coll, L and FS went into meltdown.
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Post by df on Sept 10, 2021 20:01:33 GMT
My worry is that Ablrate are nurturing a growing flock of albatrosses (...trossi?) dating back to containers, portfolio et al, and at that point the birds in question seem to miraculously turn into ostriches. Couldn't agree more. Out of my 21 loans here, some 16 are now "non-performing" and, of the remaining five, two are currently interest only (should be amortising), one is nearly always late with his payments, and one hasn't actually drawn down yet. Leaves just one that has no issues - yet. It reminds me of 2018 & 2019 when Coll, L and FS went into meltdown. I'm in 46 loans. It's my own fault putting too many eggs in one basket, but as it stands FOR/FPD/FPW/WEL constitutes 30.7% of my ABL portfolio. Other non-performers combined take another 22.3%. This makes only 47% of my ABL investment is paying monthly interest atm. Not a great picture.
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blender
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Post by blender on Sept 10, 2021 22:40:16 GMT
Let's not make things worse for ourselves than they are by assuming that none will pay. At present none of these loans is 'non-performing' because none is later than 14 days on the current payment and many have not missed a payment date. The loans have been suspended on ASMX - which is not 'non-performing' - while the position is being assessed.
We may interpret the statements about the risk from Gr**nsw*ll in different ways, but the warnings applied only to the six FPW tranches and were not added to the others. So we should appreciate the problem of the FPR borrower with cash flow - though 165 does not help and where has that £500k gone? - but we should question any proposal to let that infect the others. Ablrate has rather banged on about the importance of liquidity to the future of p2p - that's what ASMX is all about - and it will not look good, to put it mildly, to propose that large numbers of contractually unconnected loans should stay suspended for a long period. That would also put a large question mark against the management of of this borrower group by Ablrate. Ablrate should be trying to protect other borrowers' loans from collateral damage.
Unfortunately 165 causes a serious trust issue for lenders. If we have low expectations then we will get poor offers.
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Post by df on Sept 11, 2021 11:43:24 GMT
Let's not make things worse for ourselves than they are by assuming that none will pay. At present none of these loans is 'non-performing' because none is later than 14 days on the current payment and many have not missed a payment date. The loans have been suspended on ASMX - which is not 'non-performing' - while the position is being assessed. We may interpret the statements about the risk from Gr**nsw*ll in different ways, but the warnings applied only to the six FPW tranches and were not added to the others. So we should appreciate the problem of the FPR borrower with cash flow - though 165 does not help and where has that £500k gone? - but we should question any proposal to let that infect the others. Ablrate has rather banged on about the importance of liquidity to the future of p2p - that's what ASMX is all about - and it will not look good, to put it mildly, to propose that large numbers of contractually unconnected loans should stay suspended for a long period. That would also put a large question mark against the management of of this borrower group by Ablrate. Ablrate should be trying to protect other borrowers' loans from collateral damage. Unfortunately 165 causes a serious trust issue for lenders. If we have low expectations then we will get poor offers. I don't count loans paying late as 'non-performers'. By "non-performing" I mean VSD, AIR, MAT etc.
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blender
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Post by blender on Sept 11, 2021 12:22:40 GMT
I misunderstood 'other non-performers', but so might others.
We agree these loans are suspended from trading and some are late and we probably agree that we do not accept that these loans are or will be non-performing, and defaulted. It's the duty of the platform and the borrowers to be open and clear with lenders about the full picture and financial projections, and the plans for getting through the crisis and putting the loans back on a proper footing - including trading. Lenders now need to be put first and trust restored. The draw down of 165, agreed between platform and borrower, on a day when the borrower was clearly unable to make a due repayment - even after that draw down of £500k - looks bad for both. Where did that cash go, and why did it not come back in subsequent repayments. Presumably they must still have it. Reminds me of Funding Secure - unfortunately.
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eeyore
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Post by eeyore on Sept 11, 2021 14:01:43 GMT
We agree these loans are suspended from trading and some are late and we probably agree that we do not accept that these loans are or will be non-performing, and defaulted. It's the duty of the platform and the borrowers to be open and clear with lenders about the full picture and financial projections, and the plans for getting through the crisis and putting the loans back on a proper footing - including trading. Lenders now need to be put first and trust restored. The draw down of 165, agreed between platform and borrower, on a day when the borrower was clearly unable to make a due repayment - even after that draw down of £500k - looks bad for both. Where did that cash go, and why did it not come back in subsequent repayments. Presumably they must still have it. I agree, but isn't the next question: which lenders does the borrower put first? - a few hundred P2P lenders or the second largest swiss bank? My guess is that the cash is now in Switzerland! What I'd like to know is the basis of the loans from Gr*ns*ll - why are the administrators trying to extract the principal for loans lent to the borrower rather than just outstanding interest? Did Gr*ns*ll lend on the basis of repayment on demand or on very short terms so the loans are now overdue? If so, then why did the borrower need to take out loans on that basis?
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blender
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Post by blender on Sept 11, 2021 14:29:59 GMT
There is so much we do not know. If your suggestion of what happened to the £500k, or something similar, is the case (I have no idea, they may well still hold it for emergencies), and if the borrower drew down that cash in clear knowledge that other due tranches of the loan would not be repaid, then there is a large question of trust. If the platform was also aware, or chose not to be aware, that repayments would immediately cease, then there are serious issues with the platform. How can we move forward without answers?
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criston
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Post by criston on Sept 13, 2021 13:36:28 GMT
Had another read, deleted my previous post; giving them the benefit of doubt for now.
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