registerme
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Post by registerme on Apr 8, 2016 13:40:29 GMT
This is a great thread . I started out thinking that it was self-evident that platforms should have skin in the game. I now understand a lot more of the nuance involved....
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james
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Post by james on Apr 8, 2016 13:40:40 GMT
I dont think they have banned it anyway ... if they do then many platforms wont get authorised or have to change their model What part of the FCA's "the operator of the electronic system in relation to lending which facilitates the agreement does not provide credit" do you believe is ambiguous about whether it is or isn't allowed by the FCA in the 36H case? We have seen platforms changing model - SavingStream, for example - and we will presumably see more in relation to this, the bad debt rules and the ISA rules as the platforms seek to both comply and offer more attractive propositions to investors.
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james
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Post by james on Apr 8, 2016 13:42:17 GMT
what makes the difference for me is a platform who are co-invested right through to the end, so if the loan is struggling they are as keen on recovery as we are. A bit of seed money recovered once the loan is up and running isn't the same thing I agree but that doesn't change what the FCA and backing law says about whether 36H platforms are allowed to do it and given those I think that you need to seek a change in law that I agree is desirable.
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shimself
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Post by shimself on Apr 8, 2016 13:46:46 GMT
It's probably NOT a good idea to permit a platform or its directors to trade in selected loans, because of the danger of insider trading (or accusations therof), most particularly to sell them on the SM before they are repaid. What counts for interests to be aligned is that the platform (or directors thereof) to be in all loans until repayment - in AC's case you do have the collective products (the 7% ones can't recall the name). Thanks for the input.
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Post by lb on Apr 8, 2016 13:49:52 GMT
I dont think they have banned it anyway ... if they do then many platforms wont get authorised or have to change their model What part of the FCA's "the operator of the electronic system in relation to lending which facilitates the agreement does not provide credit" do you believe is ambiguous about whether it is or isn't allowed by the FCA in the 36H case? We have seen platforms changing model - SavingStream, for example - and we will presumably see more in relation to this, the bad debt rules and the ISA rules as the platforms seek to both comply and offer more attractive propositions to investors. fair enough I wasnt sure if it was/wasn't banned How have Saving Stream changed their model in light of this (in terms of skin in the game - I am aware of the change to T&C's so that loans are to borrowers) and how does any platform pre funding a loan reconcile with this restriction? or are you saying a platform pre funding a loan (SS/Lendinvest/others?) is also banned?
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shimself
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Post by shimself on Apr 8, 2016 13:51:10 GMT
I don't understand point 1, unless they are investing a large proportion of the total fund As for point 2, well yes, if loans go bad the platform's owners suffer - so they don't want them to go bad - where is the conflict there (which outweighs the benefit)?
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james
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Post by james on Apr 8, 2016 14:03:59 GMT
How have Saving Stream changed their model in light of this (in terms of skin in the game - I am aware of the change to T&C's so that loans are to borrowers) and how does any platform pre funding a loan reconcile with this restriction? or are you saying a platform pre funding a loan (SS/Lendinvest/others?) is also banned? SavingStream used to have a model where SavingStream lent to borrowers and investors lent to SavingStream. Where a loan is merely pre-funded than sold on I think that the selling on part may be able to make the process 36h compliant even though the initial pre-funding part wasn't compliant with 36h. By pre-funding here I mean the platform initially lending. In the Savingstream case the term pre-funding is now used for something different that helps lenders to get invested. I have some reservations about whether what SavingStream is doing in that area is permitted.
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Post by chris on Apr 8, 2016 15:57:38 GMT
It's probably NOT a good idea to permit a platform or its directors to trade in selected loans, because of the danger of insider trading (or accusations therof), most particularly to sell them on the SM before they are repaid. What counts for interests to be aligned is that the platform (or directors thereof) to be in all loans until repayment - in AC's case you do have the collective products (the 7% ones can't recall the name). Thanks for the input. We have a full log of all sale orders and trades and the date and time they were put into place and an internal policy that they need to be signed off by a board director before they can be put on the system. This is in the process of being formalised with the system itself preventing activation of sale orders before the appropriate director has approved them.
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Post by chris on Apr 8, 2016 16:00:05 GMT
How have Saving Stream changed their model in light of this (in terms of skin in the game - I am aware of the change to T&C's so that loans are to borrowers) and how does any platform pre funding a loan reconcile with this restriction? or are you saying a platform pre funding a loan (SS/Lendinvest/others?) is also banned? SavingStream used to have a model where SavingStream lent to borrowers and investors lent to SavingStream. Where a loan is merely pre-funded than sold on I think that the selling on part may be able to make the process 36h compliant even though the initial pre-funding part wasn't compliant with 36h. By pre-funding here I mean the platform initially lending. In the Savingstream case the term pre-funding is now used for something different that helps lenders to get invested. I have some reservations about whether what SavingStream is doing in that area is permitted. As I understand it SS use underwriters to fund the draw down and they then sell on a proportion of their holdings to the retail investors with the underwriter keeping the rest. If they're not then I'd be surprised if the nature of the lending could be changed post drawdown and piecemeal as parts of the loan sell. The FCA would look very closely at that if it were the case.
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Post by ablrateandy on Apr 8, 2016 19:17:19 GMT
I think that Directors or connected parties participating in an auction-style system is a bit shaky. Obviously where information has come to light re a loan then there shouldn't be trading anyway by insiders... But to be honest if anything comes to light lenders should be told straight away and trading stopped until there is equality of information.
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Post by dualinvestor on Apr 12, 2016 16:08:31 GMT
This may be something as simple as the general regulatory rule that any FCA authorised individual, company or firm may not mix their own money with client money. In other words all client money must be kept in a segregated account and for a platform to have "skin in the game" it may breach this rule.
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james
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Post by james on Apr 13, 2016 12:45:23 GMT
This may be something as simple as the general regulatory rule that any FCA authorised individual, company or firm may not mix their own money with client money. In other words all client money must be kept in a segregated account and for a platform to have "skin in the game" it may breach this rule. Please look a few posts earlier for the specific rule relating to P2P that I have quoted.
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Jul 26, 2016 17:56:10 GMT
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james
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Post by james on Jul 27, 2016 3:04:34 GMT
Given that it is regarded as desirable in other lending contexts, like mortgage origination in the US where lack of such a tie proved problematic, it seems desirable to reconsider.
That mortgage origination situation was where a "lender" could make loans and sell them on without retaining any of the loan liability, just taking the profit from the original sale then being off the hook. It has been credited as being one of the weaknesses in the system that allowed the growth of poor lending standards by originators.
One challenge particularly in the P2P space is that the amount of capital required to operate could significantly increase and that it might put pressure on margins requiring less good rates to borrowers lenders or both.
Rupert Taylor does get things pretty wrong with this assertion: "The evolving market in these loans makes it extremely clear that investors favour the alignment created by disclosure over the alignment created by capital. "
Nope. I don't favor the disclosure, that I have seen repeatedly being found to be flawed. I just don't have suitable competing returns available from platforms that have skin in the game so I accept the increased risk that I see from the platform not having money invested that would be lost if its disclosures were inadequate or outright false.
"disclosure, is already functioning extremely well."
ROFL. Like the platform that said it would lend only to young professionals who were under 25 and proceeded to lend to fitters, plumbers, bank clerks and checkout people who usually hadn't even completed secondary school? Or the one that didn't bother to mention that its loan to value was based on planning permission that hadn't been granted and that by the way the borrower wasn't the individual it identified but a limited company in which it was taking a 10% ownership interest?
And by the way, it seems to be accepted practice in financial services for intermediaries to disclose their remuneration. Where can I find how much a platform is getting from each loan I make on the platform?
"The leading platforms in this sector now deliver a near-complete level of disclosure."
ROFL. They provide little other than summary per-loan performance after the fact. Just ask the two leaders to let you lend only to individuals or not businesses or to only individual within a certain age range and by the way you want to check the credit scores and income and expenses before lending and watch the stream of "we don't allow you to do that" replies.
The lack of transparency is part of why skin in the game matters.
"His most obvious challenge will be encouraging all platforms to match the standards of disclosure that are upheld by the market leaders."
No thanks. I want standards to be raised, not lowered to the level of some of the leaders.
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Post by propman on Jul 27, 2016 9:22:44 GMT
Given that it is regarded as desirable in other lending contexts, like mortgage origination in the US where lack of such a tie proved problematic, it seems desirable to reconsider. That mortgage origination situation was where a "lender" could make loans and sell them on without retaining any of the loan liability, just taking the profit from the original sale then being off the hook. It has been credited as being one of the weaknesses in the system that allowed the growth of poor lending standards by originators. One challenge particularly in the P2P space is that the amount of capital required to operate could significantly increase and that it might put pressure on margins requiring less good rates to borrowers lenders or both. Rupert Taylor does get things pretty wrong with this assertion: "The evolving market in these loans makes it extremely clear that investors favour the alignment created by disclosure over the alignment created by capital. " Nope. I don't favor the disclosure, that I have seen repeatedly being found to be flawed. I just don't have suitable competing returns available from platforms that have skin in the game so I accept the increased risk that I see from the platform not having money invested that would be lost if its disclosures were inadequate or outright false. "disclosure, is already functioning extremely well." ROFL. Like the platform that said it would lend only to young professionals who were under 25 and proceeded to lend to fitters, plumbers, bank clerks and checkout people who usually hadn't even completed secondary school? Or the one that didn't bother to mention that its loan to value was based on planning permission that hadn't been granted and that by the way the borrower wasn't the individual it identified but a limited company in which it was taking a 10% ownership interest? And by the way, it seems to be accepted practice in financial services for intermediaries to disclose their remuneration. Where can I find how much a platform is getting from each loan I make on the platform? "The leading platforms in this sector now deliver a near-complete level of disclosure." ROFL. They provide little other than summary per-loan performance after the fact. Just ask the two leaders to let you lend only to individuals or not businesses or to only individual within a certain age range and by the way you want to check the credit scores and income and expenses before lending and watch the stream of "we don't allow you to do that" replies. The lack of transparency is part of why skin in the game matters. "His most obvious challenge will be encouraging all platforms to match the standards of disclosure that are upheld by the market leaders." No thanks. I want standards to be raised, not lowered to the level of some of the leaders. The article doesn't try and rubbish the idea that skin in the game provides alignment, it merely suggests that disclosure can provide alignment. Personally I don't think P2P should be required to co-invest, but I would like to see a much higher level of minimum capital and disclosure of the platform performance as well as loanbooks. The fact that RS files small company accounts at the end of the permitted period is a bigger issue to me than their disclosure or minimal co-investment. personally I want to see platforms robust enough to survive a serious downturn. When defaults increase they will come under pressure from reduced funds from lenders, combining this with losses from their co-investment would make me more nervous.
"The leading platforms in this sector now deliver a near-complete level of disclosure."
ROFL. They provide little other than summary per-loan performance after the fact. Just ask the two leaders to let you lend only to individuals or not businesses or to only individual within a certain age range and by the way you want to check the credit scores and income and expenses before lending and watch the stream of "we don't allow you to do that" replies."
I agree that disclosure is far from complete, but I don't think that would be realistic. I fail to see how disclosure should allow a lender to pick and choose. Yes I would like to limit my exposure to some borrower classes, but if the only investment option is to take a share of everything, this isn't an option. Disclosure allows me to know the extent and performance of the less palatable loans, not to ignore them (unless I don't invest at all).
- PM
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