james
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Post by james on Jul 29, 2016 13:36:18 GMT
The post by the representative of Bondora accusing Andrej of "malicious misrepresentation" has still not been edited despite being reported. I and others had to edit our posts or have them edited by mods for much lesser "attacks" on the Bondora representative. Indeed, the problem there was at least in part a correct assertion that the platform representative had not addressed the effectiveness of the due diligence but merely asserted that it was greater than in other places. Not malicious misrepresentation but that the question asked was A and the answer given was to a different question B to dodge answering question A. It's natural for lenders to be unhappy with that response and repeat the question of whether Bondora was happy with the result of the due diligence level used. The reasons for that are of course made clear by my own followup question which has also not been answered and by the approximate figures I then subsequently provided: the due diligence level used meant that even today only about 19% of the capital lent in 2014 in that market is in loans that haven't already defaulted. It doesn't matter whether the due diligence level was more or less than in other countries but whether it worked and the value of loans in default makes the answer to that obvious even without getting into the issue of borrower fraud and effectiveness or otherwise of debt collection. I assume that Bondora was also not happy with the result of the due diligence level used, nor with the effect it has clearly had on lender trust in the platform, particularly when combined with Bondora removing the option to select which countries (not) to lend to using the automatic system. But will Bondora accept that only 19% of capital not in defaulted loans was a demonstration of inadequate due diligence? Based on past performance in such matters, I doubt it. I assume they will continue to present cash flow numbers that ignore the level of future capital payments that are in defaulted loans and unlikely to ever be paid, even though they have a model for default rates and debt collection effectiveness and clearly do know that much of this money is not going to be paid. And naturally lenders who know this will view this approach taken as a misrepresentation of the true performance of the markets concerned and probably also as deliberate because Bondora does know that much of the money is never going to be paid..Since capital is a higher part of loan repayments towards the end of the term and we're still about two and a half years until the last of the 2014 loans have all capital overdue it will be some time before the cash flow approach gives a picture that is a better representation of the likely very poor end result. At that point it will under-state the performance because debt collection activity will remain and the performance presented in the cash flow method should start to improve again. The Slovakian and Spanish markets, the move to push lenders into them by restricting the automatic tool and how platform presents their performance seem likely to remain as ongoing reasons why people might recommend against using this platform for some considerable time. Can Bondora do anything to mitigate this? Maybe. Public acceptance and presentation of the projected future cash flow performance of the two markets if future capital and interest payments are made according to the model used at the time the loans were made might be one approach. By model I mean things like remaining expected defaults and percentages of capital and interest expected to be made for loans that have already defaulted. This should at least remove the objection that the defaulted capital is not being recognised yet by the cash flow approach and show that Bondora is willing to look at the result of that in the longer term. Of course there is also the added difficulty of many here writing in a language that is not their native language. That greatly adds to the potential for misunderstanding and avoidable disagreements.
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james
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 955
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Post by james on Jul 29, 2016 19:52:19 GMT
Continuing my previous post a bit, this part of today's update email is worth noting:
"EASY TO USE SIMULATION THAT LETS YOU CALCULATE NET RETURNS THE WAY YOU THINK IS RIGHT
Many active investors have their own views on the future. A couple of months ago we released the new cash flow page that allowed overriding our net return calculation with estimates of your own. We are now adding the configuration option to the dashboard as most investors do not use our more advanced features.
The simulation tool will allow you to set your own estimates for the likelihood of principal and interest to be received from performing plus delinquent loans and loans in default. You can either use estimates calculated based on your and overall Bondora portfolio or derive these numbers through the historic cash flow, personal statistics or data export."
So it's clear that Bondora does recognise that investors wish to do this sort of application of the model to future flows. But will Bondora provide such a model with per-quarter projections? I don't know but it would be quite interesting both to potentially get a better estimate of the ultimate result and to compare how the model turns out to match reality, something Bondora surely also does behind the scenes to refine the model settings used.
This can't remove the issues with the things that were done at the time but what it can do is potentially greatly reduce the ongoing unhappiness with the cash flow approach not really showing the likely final outcome at the moment.
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carlos
I'm short Bondora and long p2p.
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Post by carlos on Jul 30, 2016 9:57:58 GMT
This can't remove the issues with the things that were done at the time but what it can do is potentially greatly reduce the ongoing unhappiness with the cash flow approach not really showing the likely final outcome at the moment. Thanks for well written summary ... To my knowledge Bondora is the only site advocating this "cash flow approach" to measuring returns. This fact speaks for itself... In my opinion they have just bought themselves more time, cause as you said, in 2-3 years this model will under-estimate the performance (at least for those not reinvesting). Maybe they will switch back to previous model then ...
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Post by oktaeder on Jul 30, 2016 10:11:38 GMT
I don't like that they don't advertice their plans at all. Every week some newsletter but we didn't know that now the real bad loans will be written off right now. That's not the worst idea but the investers only sees oopps, lot of write offs now, why? And there are again technical issues. Loans written off show some planned principal last week althought all principal was repaid before. So cash flow report is messed up in july. There are some ideas of investors to be realized as they told in their latest newsletter. Great. But I'm realy worried about what will happen is bondoras portfolio manager will mix up 2nd market. And one of the biggst issue - optionaly cancel 2nd market sells if there was any repayment was not realized. Bummer! So lots of good plans but often poor realization. So don't call me to bring in more money. I won't untill they show me why I should trust bondora again.
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