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Post by earthbound on Apr 29, 2016 11:08:07 GMT
I e-mailed Saving Stream last night about this, as I think it's a bad idea. I had a reply from Tim this morning, I'm not sure whether I should post it in full, so I will just share the main points. 1) The main problem isn't gaming the pre-funding, but with people buying loan parts on the secondary market, and selling them within 48hrs - getting interest without ever putting money in SS. 2) Saving Stream see making investors hold any loan parts they've purchased for 7 days as a fair requirement for using the platform. So it sounds like this will probably be going ahead, for both pre-funding and secondary market purchases :-( Just as i suspected, i been banging on about this playing the SM for free interest, was told many times that interest was not payed to the players, seems all along it was. The quicker SS get this sorted, up and running the better, makes my blood boil knowing the chancers are making money from investing NIL.. SS have already confirmed that anyone not settling their account within the time limits will have their purchases cancelled and no interest paid. hi ian The email from saving stream above seems to me to confirm that interest was indeed paid.
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ianj
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Post by ianj on Apr 29, 2016 11:23:49 GMT
Just as i suspected, i been banging on about this playing the SM for free interest, was told many times that interest was not payed to the players, seems all along it was. SS have already confirmed that anyone not settling their account within the time limits will have their purchases cancelled and no interest paid. hi ian The email from saving stream above seems to me to confirm that interest was indeed paid. We're talking about two different scenarios. The first, is referred to in SS's email "The main problem isn't gaming the pre-funding, but with people buying loan parts on the secondary market, and selling them within 48hrs - getting interest without ever putting money in SS." The second is where lenders acquire large holding and don't balance their accounts within the grace period. SS stated quite a while back that they would, and subsequently confirmed that they had done so on occasion, cancel purchases and all interest accrued. Edit: But as I said above, IMO, prevention of selling newly purchased loans alone will not remove the potential for profiteering.
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nick
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Post by nick on Apr 29, 2016 11:27:10 GMT
The quicker SS get this sorted, up and running the better, makes my blood boil knowing the chancers are making money from investing NIL.. But ISTM that this measure, by itself, won't remove the opportunity it profit from trading within the 24/48hrs grace periods. I thought through a 'work-around' in a few minutes, and I'm not trying to make a profit, so it certainly won't take too long for your 'professional' chancers to work it out. SS have already confirmed that anyone not settling their account within the time limits will have their purchases cancelled and no interest paid. There's no justification for needing to trade in and out of 6-12 month bridging loans within days and it will be good to see the practice stamped out. Whether this is done by blocking re-sale for a few days or (probably less palatable to SS lenders) delaying interest accrual until 48 hours after purchase, I'm not really fussed. The net effect is that BHs will have little incentive to pre-fund or purchase more than they're willing to pay for. You don't need to sell recent purchases in order to profit. Selling any eligible loan within 24/48hrs will balance your account and, within the system as it currently stands, any 'extra' interest will be retained. The crux of the matter, as you have identified, is the accrual of interest within the 24/48hrs grace periods. Oh dear, if I'm correct I foresee another poll. Surely the solution is simple, and simple to implement - all over drawn accounts charged at a rate of 12%pa as at the balance at midnight (ie the same basis as loan parts). This will completely remove the current incentive to constantly utilise the credit provided as any interest on loan parts purchased with credit would be neutralised by the charge on negative balances.
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Jeepers
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Post by Jeepers on Apr 29, 2016 11:30:24 GMT
But ISTM that this measure, by itself, won't remove the opportunity it profit from trading within the 24/48hrs grace periods. I thought through a 'work-around' in a few minutes, and I'm not trying to make a profit, so it certainly won't take too long for your 'professional' chancers to work it out. SS have already confirmed that anyone not settling their account within the time limits will have their purchases cancelled and no interest paid. You don't need to sell recent purchases in order to profit. Selling any eligible loan within 24/48hrs will balance your account and, within the system as it currently stands, any 'extra' interest will be retained. The crux of the matter, as you have identified, is the accrual of interest within the 24/48hrs grace periods. Oh dear, if I'm correct I foresee another poll. Surely the solution is simple, and simple to implement - all over drawn accounts charged at a rate of 12%pa as at the balance at midnight (ie the same basis as loan parts). This will completely remove the current incentive to constantly utilise the credit provided as any interest on loan parts purchased with credit would be neutralised by the charge on negative balances. Probably a few tax implications with that unless it was deducted from interest paid rather than charged. Also because deposits aren't reconciled on the same day a deposit is sent it wouldn't work in practice.
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locutus
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Post by locutus on Apr 29, 2016 11:56:05 GMT
There's no justification for needing to trade in and out of 6-12 month bridging loans within days and it will be good to see the practice stamped out. I can think of one which is something I have done. I had a large investment I wanted to place in SS so I bought lots of the next loan to launch. A couple of days later, a new loan launched allowing me to sell some of the previous loan and diversify into the new one. I think SS need to tread carefully with their solution to this problem. I think it would be fairly easy to implement a system where interest only accrues on loans which have been paid for. Fungibility of credited funds can be worked around on a first come, first served basis. i.e. if I bought 2 loans for £100 each but only credit £100, then the first loan could be classed as funded and the second could be marked as unfunded and not accrue interest.
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investibod
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Post by investibod on Apr 29, 2016 14:46:43 GMT
I believe that a requirement for ISAs is that you need to be able to withdraw your money 'on demand'. There can be penalties for doing so and with non-liquid assets there has to be time to liquidate them. However, I do not think that an arbitrary hold period would be compatible with this.
We know that SS are keen to start providing ISAs. While it is possible that they might impose this on the non-ISA product, while not on the ISA, this would seem to be unnecessary complication.
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pom
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Post by pom on Apr 29, 2016 15:27:13 GMT
Don't see why it would affect ISAs at all - there are after all lots of fixed rate ISAs around there that you can't withdraw from until end of the term
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Apr 29, 2016 16:08:03 GMT
There's no justification for needing to trade in and out of 6-12 month bridging loans within days and it will be good to see the practice stamped out. Whether this is done by blocking re-sale for a few days or (probably less palatable to SS lenders) delaying interest accrual until 48 hours after purchase, I'm not really fussed. The net effect is that BHs will have little incentive to pre-fund or purchase more than they're willing to pay for. You don't need to sell recent purchases in order to profit. Selling any eligible loan within 24/48hrs will balance your account and, within the system as it currently stands, any 'extra' interest will be retained. The crux of the matter, as you have identified, is the accrual of interest within the 24/48hrs grace periods. If that (i.e. interest on 'forever floating' debit balances) is really the issue for SS then yes, the solution is clearly to not actually assign you the interest in the parts until they are paid for (by cash, or by selling other parts) .. for the 24 or 48 hours you just have them 'reserved', but they are not actually yours, as far as interest goes. The alternative suggested of charging 1%/month on debit balances (which amounts to the same thing) is tax/accounting wise rather trickier. This has to be saner and more direct than tying up sales for 7 days, which as you say doesn't actually stop people selling something else, and still collecting extra interest. If someone is really playing 'pass the parcel' every 48 hours, then just cancelling the offending account(s) would be fine by me too - I'm sure SS's T&Cs don't oblige them to deal with anyone they don't choose to. If the problem is people 'reserving' parts on spec, to the disadvantage of others, then the solution is something different, but putting a 7-day lock on re-sales probably isn't it (again, just sell something else, and sit on the rump of what you didn't want until the 7 days is up).
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Apr 29, 2016 16:13:25 GMT
Rather than a Fixed £100, I would suggest that a Fixed amount of each loan be allocated bottom up, the rest going proportional. It's daft that the many wanting. £100 or £200 can get it in a £300k loan, but have to game the system if the loan comes in at £1,000,001. That's essentially the same, except that the "fixed amount" under my proposal is exactly equal to the total targets of the smallest investors plus the pre-determined threshold amount times the number of investors seeking a larger amount. The only difference I can see is that your system retains uncertainty over the amount that can be bid without needing to game the system, causing some investors near the threshold to game it unnecessarily. Yep, agreed. /tongue in cheek Of course we could always have a 2-input pre-funding system, where you say 'my pre-funding for this loan is £2000, but don't bother to allocate me any parts past £1000, coz that's what I really want' .. that's what is currently happening, after all (with the 'parts past £1000' going straight back on the SM .. whereas they might just as well stay in the allocation pot). /exit tongue
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acky
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Post by acky on Apr 29, 2016 16:43:50 GMT
I voted for 7 days but actually think it probably ought to be more. I can certainly see no justification for not putting in some sort of no-trade period or for that period being less than 7 days. If it reduces gaming and consequent SM distortion, that fully justifies it. Yes, I game the system to try to get what I want, of course I do, but I'm prepared to live with the consequences of getting it wrong and would never bid more than I'm prepared to fork out if I have to.
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j
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Post by j on Apr 29, 2016 17:03:43 GMT
All my loan parts have a start date, why not add an explicit part-paid-for-on date. Interest accrues from that date. If you have cash available in your account, you get interest immediately. If you don't, you fund your account and start receiving interest when your payment clears. If you buy something late in the evening then you are going to miss a day's interest, but you haven't exactly risked your capital so why do you deserve it. I know there are rough edges here, i.e. what if the money you transfer doesn't cover the entirety of all the loans you've bought? Ultimately it doesn't matter, if you have deposited £X, then you start receiving the standard flat rate of interest on that £X, no matter what loans are flagged as paid-for. And as a lender, we have to take some responsibility to manage our accounts and amounts and get the deposits correct. Do SS have the tech to do it this way? This seems a very fair solution.
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awk
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Post by awk on Apr 29, 2016 17:30:08 GMT
Probably easiest to charge a daily interest (the same 12% pa) on any negative balance at midnight. This should balance out any interest earned.
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investibod
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Post by investibod on Apr 29, 2016 20:07:33 GMT
Don't see why it would affect ISAs at all - there are after all lots of fixed rate ISAs around there that you can't withdraw from until end of the term You can withdraw from fixed rate ISAs. You will lose interest if you do, but you always have the option to withdraw. www.moneysavingexpert.com/savings/best-cash-isa#fixedIt is possible that this only applies to cash ISAs, in which case my point is moot.
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pom
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Post by pom on Apr 29, 2016 21:14:11 GMT
Don't see why it would affect ISAs at all - there are after all lots of fixed rate ISAs around there that you can't withdraw from until end of the term You can withdraw from fixed rate ISAs. You will lose interest if you do, but you always have the option to withdraw. www.moneysavingexpert.com/savings/best-cash-isa#fixedIt is possible that this only applies to cash ISAs, in which case my point is moot. You can get your money back by closing but there are plenty that don't allow partial withdrawals. And plenty of them won't be that instant particularly if you want to preserve your allowances (they don't have to make them flexible)
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jonah
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Post by jonah on Apr 29, 2016 21:31:07 GMT
I think that there a rules (14 days for cash?) on how long they can take to respond to a cash transfer request to another ISA provider though.
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