registerme
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,624
Likes: 6,437
|
Post by registerme on May 14, 2016 11:33:10 GMT
I don't think P2P should be restricted to "experienced investors" since the definitions used by regulators are meaningless. The reality, however, is that the initial attempt at regulation of the P2P industry by the FCA is unlikely to be fit for purpose because P2P is evolving too rapidly. A few years ago it was about simple direct lending. The FCA now face issues around market-place lending vs. direct lending models. Products are being created which blur the lines between the platform's agent role and collective investment products. Consumer credit regulation is also really not built to accommodate active loan trading; this requires securities-type regulation but that flies in the face of the governments stated aim for "light touch" regulation in P2P. As mrclondon says the current approach is probably unsustainable. When we get a crisis/crunch in the P2P industry (which we will since every asset class does and P2P is not special), the FCA will likely react by banning retail investors from playing or only allowing them to play via "simple" regulated structures. The problem with these structures is that their costs reduce returns, the "simplicity" often hides more complexity/risk, and they always lessen choice for the end investor. Everybody loses. Most improvements I'd like to see can be put under the heading of "transparency": a) P2P platforms banned from comparing their products with savings accounts (or even using the word "account"): they are a form of fixed income product, comparable to speculative grade corporate bonds, ABS or middle-market loans. I'd say that a major error has already been made by allowing IFISAs. A rename of the S&S ISA to an Investment ISA, and including P2P, would have been more appropriate. Instead, the platforms lobbied for a separate ISA product because they want to attract the undemanding, dumb, sticky capital from cash ISAs that is 75% of the ISA market. Great for platforms but P2P is not a replacement for cash. b) Fee transparency. The idea that "lenders pay no fees" must be stopped; lenders need to know that they are only receiving 40-80% of the interest/fees being paid by the borrower. How can lenders possibly understand the credit risk they take if they don't know what the borrower pays? Funds or IFAs have to tell investors what the fees are; how is it that P2P platforms are allowed to hind behind commercial privilege? c) Clarity with regard to any product that is not direct P2P lending: provision funds, forms of "quick access" product, diversified "fund-like" products, those with a duration mismatch. It's very hard for me to see how certain products, ones where the lender has no idea which loans are being held, how much is in cash etc, is anything other than discretionary investment management by the platform. d) More information of what occurs in default/recovery. Many platforms give out very little information regarding issues with loans. That creates a false sense of security for investors. Default and recovery statistics that agree with the standards used in the securities industry and not the nonsense produced by the P2PFA. A more rigid use of the word "default" might be a start. e) Far more standardization around valuations for security, especially LTVs. f) Increased focus on operational risk. For example, lenders need to know exactly where cash is being held (some platform directors don't seem to know!) and have access to the "bible" of legal documents that define the trusts and their relationship with the borrower. On one platform there seems quite a bit of confusion on some loans on whether lenders are facing the platform or borrower and what exactly is the position of a loan that is beyond it's expected maturity; how can such question even be possible? Of course the real solution is to improve the education of the population around financial products but that is simply a pipe-dream ... Platforms, the UKP2PFA, and the FCA should all be aspiring to the above (and mrclondon's post here). As it stands I have no faith that the UKP2PFA has lenders' interests at heart - it's an industry lobbying body. Whether I decide that the FCA do will, in large part, be dependent on the outcome of the FCA authorisation process that the platforms are currently undergoing.
|
|
|
Post by GSV3MIaC on May 14, 2016 12:24:48 GMT
Nope, but there should be an obvious and enforceable difference between gambling, investing, and saving, IMO. 'Caveat Emptor' is all very well, unless/until 'the state' (meaning you, and me, via our taxes) are supposed to pick up the pieces if they didn't caveat enough. (but the PPI ambulance chasing is silly in the other direction, I dunno anyone who was put in the poorhouse by buying PPI .. taking too much credit .. yes, for sure). So is investing in stock markets gambling, as many would describe it? Is investing in a tracker-like bet with no leverage at a spread betting firm gambling, investing, both or neither? What about a contract for difference or doubly or triply leveraged tracker ETFs, which can be a handy tool for risk reduction when used to reduce net exposure to a market without selling the underlying assets? I guess definitions would vary, but anything where it is zero-sum (or worse), and where you are typically on the thin side (alternative definition .. summed over everyone, over all time, you can't win) is my idea of gambling. If (ignoring taxes and inflation) you can't lose, that's saving. The stuff in between is investing, with various risk/reward averages and spreads. Like I said, no problem if you want to go triply leveraged for an 'all on #31', as long as I'm not required to pick the bits up if is goes awry.
|
|
shimself
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,563
Likes: 1,171
|
Post by shimself on May 14, 2016 12:32:22 GMT
..... the PPI ambulance chasing is silly in the other direction, I dunno anyone who was put in the poorhouse by buying PPI .. taking too much credit .. yes, for sure). But they were robbing the customer, where profits were something like 90% of premiums. That isn't ok and it is very not OK when the provider is (was at the time) in a position of some sort of authority, pretending to be looking out for your interests. Martin Lewis (praise be unto him) wrote a lovely piece about the right to be stupid (meaning the right not to be taken advantage when you don't have the nowse or intellect to make sense of the small print).
|
|
|
Post by mrclondon on May 14, 2016 12:42:52 GMT
I would like to see regulator action to force platforms to ...
b) provide full disclosure of borrower's financial affairs ... Without that, restricting p2p to sophisticated investors is a necessity IMO to protect the platforms (and hence indirectly us) from the huge risk to the sector of mis-selling action due to the misrepresentation of the underlying assets by the platform.
So, I borrowed money from Zopa some years back. What would you want to see from me and other borrowers at Zopa in the way of full disclosure to lenders of their financial affairs? Recent bank statements from all of their current, savings, fund, pension and other accounts perhaps, as well as current loan and credit card statements? Which individuals at a business would you have required to also provide that information so we can check whether they might be inclined to stake the money for an undeclared purpose? Should the disclosure include identity of properties owned with links to street views and professional valuations of the properties so their value can be assessed? I do not agree that P2P should be restricted to only sophisticated investors, nor to both sophisticated and high net worth investors. The heart of P2P is the non-sophisticated investors who are not high net worth individuals. I do now meet the requirement to self-certify as a sophisticated investor because I've used P2P to invest via lending in many unlisted businesses. I suspect that most reading this discussion now also qualify courtesy of their own P2P investments. But perhaps you didn't mean the regulatory definition of sophisticated investors? Two quick points to clarify my thinking:
For consumer lending the reliance has to be on platform credit scoring and hence black box provision fund backed accounts and ideally enforced small exposure to an individual loan (i.e. something along the lines of Zopa safeguard).
I was indeed thinking of the regulatory definition of sophisticated investors, and the self-certification mechanism. Perhaps I'm being naïve in thinking that anyone that self-certifies as a sophisticated investor after doing the multiple choice quiz of the likes of crowdcube or seedrs would find themselves in a weakened position to launch a mis-selling claim against a platform (e.g. because a valuation actually includes hope value, but the platform states it doesn't).
The primary concern I'm addressing in my posts in this thread is how can platforms reduce the risk of mis-selling claims against them ?
|
|
james
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 955
|
Post by james on May 14, 2016 20:50:38 GMT
So is investing in stock markets gambling, as many would describe it? Is investing in a tracker-like bet with no leverage at a spread betting firm gambling, investing, both or neither? What about a contract for difference or doubly or triply leveraged tracker ETFs, which can be a handy tool for risk reduction when used to reduce net exposure to a market without selling the underlying assets? I guess definitions would vary, but anything where it is zero-sum (or worse), and where you are typically on the thin side (alternative definition .. summed over everyone, over all time, you can't win) is my idea of gambling. If (ignoring taxes and inflation) you can't lose, that's saving. The stuff in between is investing, with various risk/reward averages and spreads. Like I said, no problem if you want to go triply leveraged for an 'all on #31', as long as I'm not required to pick the bits up if is goes awry. That's pretty much where I'd end up in defining things as well, short of the legal specifics of what is or isn't legally considered to be gambling.
|
|
james
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 955
|
Post by james on May 14, 2016 21:17:03 GMT
Perhaps I'm being naïve in thinking that anyone that self-certifies as a sophisticated investor after doing the multiple choice quiz of the likes of crowdcube or seedrs would find themselves in a weakened position to launch a mis-selling claim against a platform (e.g. because a valuation actually includes hope value, but the platform states it doesn't). The primary concern I'm addressing in my posts in this thread is how can platforms reduce the risk of mis-selling claims against them In that specific case I think that the platform wouldn't have significantly reduced the mis-selling risk because there appears to be actual deception going on. Though I would hope that at least one sophisticated investor would notice the discrepancy before investing.
|
|
elliotn
Member of DD Central
Posts: 3,064
Likes: 2,681
|
Post by elliotn on May 9, 2017 12:38:10 GMT
This is in response to lendinvest constantly looking at ways to improve the services they offer to customers and now only allowing sophisticated investors to invest in new loans. Despite a career in audit and investment banking it would appear I may now be disqualified. I list the requirements below but have a specific query re unlisted co investments - would SME fixed income investment for working capital or similar p2p loan qualify or must it be equity. HNWI - annual income last year > £100,000 - assets >250k (excluding pension/home) Self-certified sophisticated investor* - Business angel >6 months - >1 investment in an unlisted company in last two years - Worked in private equity or in the provision of finance for SMEs in last 2 years - Company director with turnover > £1 million in last two years. Investment professional - Your work involves managing, operating or investing in alternative investment funds (“AIFs”); - You are a director, officer or employee of such an organisation, acting in your professional capacity, and your work responsibilities involve you investing in AIFs. Corporate investors: Investing on behalf of a company or institution. * FCA Handbook - self-certified sophisticated investor: A person who meets the requirements set out in article 23A of the Promotion of Collective Investment Schemes Order, in article 50A of the Financial Promotions Order or in COBS 4.12.8 R. - I can only see what promotions can be made to me under above provisions.
|
|
am
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 601
|
Post by am on May 11, 2017 22:29:30 GMT
This is in response to lendinvest constantly looking at ways to improve the services they offer to customers and now only allowing sophisticated investors to invest in new loans. Despite a career in audit and investment banking it would appear I may now be disqualified. I list the requirements below but have a specific query re unlisted co investments - would SME fixed income investment for working capital or similar p2p loan qualify or must it be equity. HNWI - annual income last year > £100,000 - assets >250k (excluding pension/home) Self-certified sophisticated investor* - Business angel >6 months - >1 investment in an unlisted company in last two years - Worked in private equity or in the provision of finance for SMEs in last 2 years - Company director with turnover > £1 million in last two years. Investment professional - Your work involves managing, operating or investing in alternative investment funds (“AIFs”); - You are a director, officer or employee of such an organisation, acting in your professional capacity, and your work responsibilities involve you investing in AIFs. Corporate investors: Investing on behalf of a company or institution. * FCA Handbook - self-certified sophisticated investor: A person who meets the requirements set out in article 23A of the Promotion of Collective Investment Schemes Order, in article 50A of the Financial Promotions Order or in COBS 4.12.8 R. - I can only see what promotions can be made to me under above provisions. When signing up with one platform I had cause to ask that question. (The self-certification on the web site was a bit ambiguous so I took the opportunity to clarify my situation when the welcome email arrived.) That platform at least considers debt investments in SMEs qualifies one for sophisticated investor status.
|
|