ramblin rose
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“Some people grumble that roses have thorns; I am grateful that thorns have roses.” — Alphonse Karr
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Post by ramblin rose on Nov 3, 2014 13:06:03 GMT
Does anybody know what the default interest rate would be on this loan? All the other defaults I have been involved in are at 50% above their standard rate - is this how it works, or is it a fixed 18% for any defaulting loan? I haven't been able to find it in the documentation relating to the loan - and wasn't there more of that in the old system? - maybe I'm imagining things.
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Post by Ton ⓉⓞⓃ on Nov 3, 2014 13:08:54 GMT
It's 15% pa right now, but it defaults to 18%pa
IN EDIT Q&A "Default rate will be 1.5% p/m. Answered by Assetz Capital 2nd Oct 2014 at 08:56"
2nd In Edit. No idea how it works, but commercial type bridges seem to go to 18%, althought one did go to 24%. We don't get to see the contract that is between AC and the Borrower. Although I think we get to see some of the 'heads of title' at the end of many of the credit reports.
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ramblin rose
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“Some people grumble that roses have thorns; I am grateful that thorns have roses.” — Alphonse Karr
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Post by ramblin rose on Nov 3, 2014 13:26:32 GMT
Thanks Ton ⓉⓞⓃ - I read through the Q&As before asking, but obviously didn't pay enough attention.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Nov 3, 2014 21:16:42 GMT
Does anybody know what the default interest rate would be on this loan? All the other defaults I have been involved in are at 50% above their standard rate - is this how it works, or is it a fixed 18% for any defaulting loan? I haven't been able to find it in the documentation relating to the loan - and wasn't there more of that in the old system? - maybe I'm imagining things. Ton ⓉⓞⓃ has answered the first question. With respect to the second, AIUI, it all depends on what was written into the original loan agreement. For one of the defaulted loans I'm in the default rate is 3% above the ordinary interest rate. But we know it varies. While exploring the new website I came across Key Investor Information regarding Defaults and Losses which includes... Perhaps that is AC's current policy for new loans, but it's clearly inconsistent with the examples we have so far.
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Nov 6, 2014 11:35:49 GMT
This one is certainly not looking good and I expect it will probably go the same route as others that are in default. No doubt default interest will be accrued but whether it will be paid or not is debatable. In circumstances when it is becoming fairly obvious that a default will occur, I feel it would be preferable for AC to be far more pro-active before the event otherwise we're into another E*****/I*****/A******/H****** situation to mention just four. Whilst it may be nice seeing the default interest accrue I prefer to be more realistic. Once all the associated costs are taken into account I doubt if we will see it. Or am I just being a pessimist?
What appears to be the case is waiting for the borrower/introducer to make contact with a proposal. I would have thought that it would have been in the interests of everyone if AC took 'the lead' in this area.
Ramblings over.
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oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Nov 6, 2014 12:00:49 GMT
Have any of AC's bridging loans over the last twelve months actually been repaid on time (or within one month)? Someone mentioned somewhere else that 70% of bridging loans over-run, so perhaps AC ought to provide an estimate as to what their expected norm is for such loans. Then we can (if we so wish) think of six month bridging loans as (say) ten months and twelve monthers as (say) sixteen months - have prearranged over-run (rather than default) interest rates 50% above the initial ones in the original contract, and not worry until that extended time is up. Then default procedures should take over very rapidly, the borrower/the introducer/their solicitors knowing exactly what to expect.
(Grumps can ramble too)
As an afterthought (don't get many of them on a Thursday) I will be very interested to watch SS's progress as they approach the end of their 6 month bridgers - round about now.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Nov 6, 2014 15:06:43 GMT
Once all the associated costs are taken into account I doubt if we will see it. Or am I just being a pessimist? What appears to be the case is waiting for the borrower/introducer to make contact with a proposal. I would have thought that it would have been in the interests of everyone if AC took 'the lead' in this area. With 70% LTV loans secured by a first charge on property, I suspect bugs4me is being pessimistic. But it requires a lot of work and it's a painful process. And in the end the borrower loses most, if not all, of their equity in their property, so it's potentially devastating for them. I know I ought to take a objective approach and presume that the borrower was well aware of the risks when they went into the deal, so I shouldn't care if it turns into a disaster for them. But I'd much prefer it if the exit were less painful for both borrower and lender. So I'd think it would be better for all concerned if AC were more proactive in default cases and started trying to work out a mutually acceptable solution with the borrower sooner rather than later, possibly starting even before the maturity date of the loan. AC seem to be trying this approach at Hackney, though it did take them a few months to become proactive. Perhaps if Hackney turns out successfully it will encourage AC to do more of this in the future.
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niceguy37
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Post by niceguy37 on Nov 6, 2014 15:19:04 GMT
Once all the associated costs are taken into account I doubt if we will see it. Or am I just being a pessimist? What appears to be the case is waiting for the borrower/introducer to make contact with a proposal. I would have thought that it would have been in the interests of everyone if AC took 'the lead' in this area. With 70% LTV loans secured by a first charge on property, I suspect bugs4me is being pessimistic. But it requires a lot of work and it's a painful process. And in the end the borrower loses most, if not all, of their equity in their property, so it's potentially devastating for them. I know I ought to take a objective approach and presume that the borrower was well aware of the risks when they went into the deal, so I shouldn't care if it turns into a disaster for them. But I'd much prefer it if the exit were less painful for both borrower and lender. So I'd think it would be better for all concerned if AC were more proactive in default cases and started trying to work out a mutually acceptable solution with the borrower sooner rather than later, possibly starting even before the maturity date of the loan. AC seem to be trying this approach at Hackney, though it did take them a few months to become proactive. Perhaps if Hackney turns out successfully it will encourage AC to do more of this in the future. I like the approach taken with H*****y of getting interest payments up to date in exchange for an extension at a reduced-from-default interest rate loan extension. The interest will bring the LTV back down to more a comfortable level, and hopefully the borrower can finally brings his/her plan to fruition.
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merlin
Minor shareholder in Assetz and many other companies.
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Post by merlin on Nov 6, 2014 15:48:18 GMT
Whilst it may be nice seeing the default interest accrue I prefer to be more realistic. Once all the associated costs are taken into account I doubt if we will see it. Or am I just being a pessimist? More ramblings. In this case I don't think we have much to worry about other than one factor and that is, was the original valuation accurate. In a windup situation one of the key objectives is to get property sold of quick to avoid dilapidation, squatters, vandalism, etc. This usually means selling at "fire sale" prices and could easily be well below original market value. This is particularly so were building or conversion work is a work in progress. LTV is of course a major factor and particularly so where the original value was relatively low - say below £300k. In which case a LTV 70% only provides a theoretical gross margin of £90k and that has to pay the costs of sale, winding up and if you are lucky your capital and whatever you are owed by way of interest on your loan. So if the property sells at a 20% discount to the original valuation you had better start whistling for you money. If on the other hand the original valuation was three or four times the example above the residual margin will be much larger as many of the costs will be much smaller.
Personally I wont touch anything with a valuation below £500k and I want a better LTV that 70%. This I feel gives me a reasonable certainty of recovering my capital and a good chance of recovering some or all of my interest as well.
Come on AC tell me I am a prat and its not like that at all as AC have got it all watertight with bombproof paperwork.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Nov 6, 2014 16:02:29 GMT
Come on AC tell me I am a prat and its not like that at all as AC have got it all watertight with bombproof paperwork. If the property is one that appeals only to a limited group of buyers, it won't sell easily. So the discount seen in a 'fire sale' or auction could be substantial. In that case, or if the valuation is overly optimistic, it won't matter if the paperwork is bombproof. On the positive side, at least we have a first charge here and don't have to fight with another lender as well.
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Post by mrclondon on Nov 6, 2014 18:06:50 GMT
In this case I don't think we have much to worry about other than one factor and that is, was the original valuation accurate. Whilst you're right at a general level, in this case my concern is slightly different - namely by how much has the reasons given for refusing planning permission reduced the valuation obtained earlier in the year ? My reading (which is essentially worst case) is that planning may never be granted for the commercial development of the land, so the 18 acres of poor agricultural land are now essentially worthless once the cost of clearance of the previous use is factored in. But we don't know the split in the original valuation between the land and the house, to assess to impact of this.
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sqh
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Before P2P, savers put a guinea in a piggy bank, now they smash the banks to become guinea pigs.
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Post by sqh on Nov 6, 2014 19:48:18 GMT
In this case I don't think we have much to worry about other than one factor and that is, was the original valuation accurate. Whilst you're right at a general level, in this case my concern is slightly different - namely by how much has the reasons given for refusing planning permission reduced the valuation obtained earlier in the year ? My reading (which is essentially worst case) is that planning may never be granted for the commercial development of the land, so the 18 acres of poor agricultural land are now essentially worthless once the cost of clearance of the previous use is factored in. But we don't know the split in the original valuation between the land and the house, to assess to impact of this. Don't forget that this loan is in the name of the lender, which I believe means it also has a Personal Guarantee. I'm yet to understand whether a PG with AC has more credence than with other P2P platforms. I did ask Andrew in a Q&A thread 2 months back and thought that it would be explained on the new site but I can't find it.
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Post by chielamangus on Nov 7, 2014 9:35:47 GMT
In this case I don't think we have much to worry about other than one factor and that is, was the original valuation accurate. Whilst you're right at a general level, in this case my concern is slightly different - namely by how much has the reasons given for refusing planning permission reduced the valuation obtained earlier in the year ? My reading (which is essentially worst case) is that planning may never be granted for the commercial development of the land, so the 18 acres of poor agricultural land are now essentially worthless once the cost of clearance of the previous use is factored in. But we don't know the split in the original valuation between the land and the house, to assess to impact of this. From the Q&A: Unfortunately our agreement with the introducer prohibits the release of information that identifies the borrower. However, valuation split is as follows:
House & 6 acres £295,000 Garden Centre & 12.4 acres £500,000 Combined Value (discounted) £750,000and However, we are satisfied that the valuation values asset in current state so we should expect to receive that amount if sale of the asset was required.
Pawnpusher with local knowledge was not convinced by the Garden Centre valuation
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Nov 7, 2014 10:19:25 GMT
Whilst you're right at a general level, in this case my concern is slightly different - namely by how much has the reasons given for refusing planning permission reduced the valuation obtained earlier in the year ? My reading (which is essentially worst case) is that planning may never be granted for the commercial development of the land, so the 18 acres of poor agricultural land are now essentially worthless once the cost of clearance of the previous use is factored in. But we don't know the split in the original valuation between the land and the house, to assess to impact of this. From the Q&A: Unfortunately our agreement with the introducer prohibits the release of information that identifies the borrower. However, valuation split is as follows:
House & 6 acres £295,000 Garden Centre & 12.4 acres £500,000 Combined Value (discounted) £750,000and However, we are satisfied that the valuation values asset in current state so we should expect to receive that amount if sale of the asset was required.
Pawnpusher with local knowledge was not convinced by the Garden Centre valuation
The Garden Centre valuation will of course be entirely dependent upon audited trading figures and hoping a willing buyer can be found. In my neck of the woods, prime agricultural land goes to auction at between 10-12k an acre. About half that if it can only be used as pasture. Of course if/when PP is granted then the price rockets. Obtaining PP is highly dependant upon the local authority strategic review and obtaining that PP if your parcel of land is not designated an area for future development can be a torturous process to say the least. Deep pockets also help the process IMO.
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Post by chielamangus on Nov 7, 2014 10:25:09 GMT
"The Garden Centre valuation will of course be entirely dependent upon audited trading figures..."
Exactly. Have you seen them? Have you seen the business?
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