ashtondav
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Post by ashtondav on Apr 1, 2018 10:13:08 GMT
Just calculated my returns over the last year came to 6% after fees (and small losses). Unfortunately I believe the fees are still not tax deductible, so a bit less than that. Is there any news on getting fees to be taken off in a way that makes them not taxable? Like every other platform! A bit less. A LOT LESS. 6% net of fees mean you pay tax on 7.5% (6%+1.5%). 40% tax on 7.5% is 3%, so you end up with a return of 6%-3%=3%, if a 40% tax payer. I would be investing five figures in BM if the fees were tax deductible. As it is it’s a nonsense for 40%ers and 45%ers, makes marginal sense for a 20%er and only really makes sense for non taxpayers or companies. In short, it’s a rather silly business model. Quite why the clever folks at BM towers got themselves into this is ludicrous situation is beyond me.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Apr 1, 2018 10:50:41 GMT
But you would be paying tax on the 6% anyway (if fees were deducted first) then the return would be 6% - 2.4% = 3.6%. So 0.6% worse off due to the fees being taxable or 0.3% at 20% tax. Bad enough though.
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dave
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Post by dave on Apr 1, 2018 10:57:54 GMT
hopefully their ISA bonds will fix the tax problem for me ... asuming fees are not stupidly high, or returns too low
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garfield
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Post by garfield on Apr 1, 2018 11:40:56 GMT
Just calculated my returns over the last year came to 6% after fees (and small losses). Unfortunately I believe the fees are still not tax deductible, so a bit less than that. Is there any news on getting fees to be taken off in a way that makes them not taxable? Like every other platform! A bit less. A LOT LESS. 6% net of fees mean you pay tax on 7.5% (6%+1.5%). 40% tax on 7.5% is 3%, so you end up with a return of 6%-3%=3%, if a 40% tax payer.I would be investing five figures in BM if the fees were tax deductible. As it is it’s a nonsense for 40%ers and 45%ers, makes marginal sense for a 20%er and only really makes sense for non taxpayers or companies. In short, it’s a rather silly business model. Quite why the clever folks at BM towers got themselves into this is ludicrous situation is beyond me. Hi ashtondav, if you have a 5 figure sum invested, you don't pay 1.5% on the whole lot. Above £25K, the fees reduce to 1.25%, then to just 1% above £100K. If you're a 40% taxpayer, you have to pay tax wherever your interest comes from, unless you invest through a SIPP.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Apr 1, 2018 12:35:29 GMT
The 1% minimum loan size worries me more than the unfortunate fee arrangements (which are at least quantifiable) a few defaults will make a big dent in returns. To invest more I would want to be able to diversify more, so far my defaults have been from when I had very little invested so a 1% hit was peanuts.
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Post by stevefindlay on Apr 1, 2018 13:55:17 GMT
Just calculated my returns over the last year came to 6% after fees (and small losses). Unfortunately I believe the fees are still not tax deductible, so a bit less than that. Is there any news on getting fees to be taken off in a way that makes them not taxable? Like every other platform! A bit less. A LOT LESS. 6% net of fees mean you pay tax on 7.5% (6%+1.5%). 40% tax on 7.5% is 3%, so you end up with a return of 6%-3%=3%, if a 40% tax payer. I would be investing five figures in BM if the fees were tax deductible. As it is it’s a nonsense for 40%ers and 45%ers, makes marginal sense for a 20%er and only really makes sense for non taxpayers or companies. In short, it’s a rather silly business model. Quite why the clever folks at BM towers got themselves into this is ludicrous situation is beyond me. The answer is in your own post: it costs £12 to set up a company and about 5mins work. This opens a raft of tax planning opportunities (beyond just the fee deduction). Although if you're a Basic Rate taxpayer or unfamiliar with tax structuring, then investing in your personal name is probably easiest. Our current product is probably more like 'BondMason Pro' - for the educated investor that understands risks and returns, and may want to further structure their return in a tax efficient way through a personal investment company, but wants to access a highly diversified portfolio in a passive way. Our upcoming Bonds will likely be more for the casual fixed-income investor, looking for even greater certainty over their return and in a tax efficient wrapper; all accessed simply and with low maintenance. Probably best for those wanting to allocate up to £20k-40k pa. (using an ISA allowance or two). Remember: our ethos is to seek to enable clients to get a better return than any savings account, by taking on a bit more risk. We are not looking (or encouraging) people to chase 9-12%+ pa; you can attempt this elsewhere.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Apr 1, 2018 14:55:36 GMT
stevefindlayThat would be a No then? Is about 6% before tax the return we should be expecting or have I been a bit unlucky?
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Post by stevefindlay on Apr 1, 2018 15:30:48 GMT
stevefindlayThat would be a No then? Is about 6% before tax the return we should be expecting or have I been a bit unlucky? We don't give tax advice. 6% is broadly correct in your first 12 months (assuming you have less than £25k invested). 8% gross less 1.5% fee and 30-40bps for cash drag in first months or so.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Apr 1, 2018 17:04:09 GMT
stevefindlayPreviously you have said that HMRC advised that fees are non tax deductible. Is that still the case? This is not my first 12 months. Previous about 6 months gives about the same result 6%. So overall about 6% before tax after fees (and small defaults) without allowance for taxation on fees.
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ashtondav
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Post by ashtondav on Apr 1, 2018 20:09:07 GMT
stevefindlay Previously you have said that HMRC advised that fees are non tax deductible. Is that still the case? This is not my first 12 months. Previous about 6 months gives about the same result 6%. So overall about 6% before tax after fees (and small defaults) without allowance for taxation on fees. Yes, it is still the case. You pay tax on the gross amount, 7% or 8%. So for a tax payer you need to form a company to make BM competitive with any other platform. A shame.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Apr 1, 2018 20:30:27 GMT
Steve seemed to decline to comment on the tax situation I would like BM to confirm what they stated previously (as they did also say at one point that they were in discussion with HMRC about it and I never heard the outcome). Although as far as I am aware you are correct.
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Jul 22, 2018 8:18:43 GMT
Out of curiosity - with the dearth of high-rate loans recently, how is Bondmason corner these days for existing investors? This forum seems very quiet about them, and there seems to have been only one trustpilot review about them in the last 8 months.
From their front page, it looks like they're very much more focused on direct lending these days. What sort of loans has that resulted in, do we know?
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jul 22, 2018 9:46:38 GMT
Out of curiosity - with the dearth of high-rate loans recently, how is Bondmason corner these days for existing investors? This forum seems very quiet about them, and there seems to have been only one trustpilot review about them in the last 8 months. From their front page, it looks like they're very much more focused on direct lending these days. What sort of loans has that resulted in, do we know? My headline rate says 8.1% before fees and bad debt. Unfortunately a few bad debts and quite a few 'in recovery' including a number of Col loans (apparently). With a minimum 1% diversification defaults are a real problem. My recent loans seem to be predominantly invoice discounting and bridging with some business, working capital and development, no idea who to. A bit disillusioned with the concept, but not selling off yet.
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nairda
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Post by nairda on Jul 22, 2018 14:07:02 GMT
Out of curiosity - with the dearth of high-rate loans recently, how is Bondmason corner these days for existing investors? This forum seems very quiet about them, and there seems to have been only one trustpilot review about them in the last 8 months. From their front page, it looks like they're very much more focused on direct lending these days. What sort of loans has that resulted in, do we know? My headline rate says 8.1% before fees and bad debt. Unfortunately a few bad debts and quite a few 'in recovery' including a number of Col loans (apparently). With a minimum 1% diversification defaults are a real problem. My recent loans seem to be predominantly invoice discounting and bridging with some business, working capital and development, no idea who to. A bit disillusioned with the concept, but not selling off yet. After much thought I have just liquidated my holdings, though I still have about 16% of my total investment tied up in Recovery (19 loans), Watchlist (9 loans) and Write offs (1 loan). I am hoping most of these come good in the fullness of time, but there will probably be a few more write offs and that will rapidly dent the returns to the point where there are better offerings elsewhere. The fees at 1.5%, and not tax deductible meaning a "real" fee of 1.875%, makes a very big hole in the returns too. The Collateral problems constitute 7 of the 19 loans in recovery, a ridiculously high percentage, and accounting for roughly half the amount of money in recovery too. Oh well.
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ashtondav
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Post by ashtondav on Jul 22, 2018 16:54:58 GMT
Because fees are not tax deductable BM is not competitive for higher rate taxpayers. Shame thats how they built the business model, but paying tax on the GROSS return is just plain daft. I might reconsider if ISAble, just for diversification.
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