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Post by bluechip on Aug 16, 2016 19:45:38 GMT
I personally don't like preferential treatment being shown to Institutional Investors. It is called 'Peer to Peer', not 'Remnants to Peer'.
I'd also like a ban on bonus rates for new investors only, any bonus should be applicable to anybody wishing to meet the lending criteria irrespective of how long they have been with the P2P platform, £1 of my money is as good as £1 of anybody elses. P2P should be able to attract people to their services on the merits of their standard offering, not enticing people to sucker them in like bookmakers tend to do.
Most of the other stuff I'd like looked at is covered above.
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Post by lb on Aug 17, 2016 8:25:48 GMT
3. Pooled risk accounts - are they true p2p? Are "black box" accounts appropriate for retail investors? Are they actually "collective investments"? If so would it be more appropriate to sell them as investment products eg an investment trust rather than as a "savings account"? 4. Maturity transformation and lack of transparency. 5. Related to 4. above, liquidity risk. 6. Provision funds - they have to be discretionary, but that introduces uncertainty into their value to the lender. People may draw undue comfort from their presence. Were a provision fund materially at risk it would threaten the future of the platform. Related to point 10. below. (3, 4, 5 and 6 are of relevance to anybody concerned about regulatory arbitrage) loads of good points already on this thread by all and just a couple of comments I had on these ones below. 3. Pooled risk accounts - are they true p2p? Are "black box" accounts appropriate for retail investors? Are they actually "collective investments"? If so would it be more appropriate to sell them as investment products eg an investment trust rather than as a "savings account"?I think for mainstream ISA-type investors pooling/diversification is critical. It is too easy for an un-savvy saver to put all their money into 1 or 2 or 3 loans without being aware of the importance of diversification. And lose all/large part of their investment. Diversification is key to being relatively "safe". Where investments are pooled investors losses would have to be proportionate to some degree against a platforms overall success/failure. So un-savvy investors will naturally have some form of protection as the platforms interests are more closely aligned with investors. Black box is a totally different point but I agree that more transparency is needed. AC QAA for example is a great account/product, but there is no transparency as to the loans/cash held within it and that should change. 4. Maturity transformation and lack of transparency.Accounts offering good/instant liquidity are great. They should be welcomed as they serve a great purpose for many. However the fall back position for investors for all platforms should be made VERY clear. i.e. on RS, let's face it, in doomsday scenario you are waiting up to 5 years (plus roll over) to get all your money. On Landbay it may be 10 years. On AC we cant know but also therefore up to 10 years. There should be no restriction on offering these products at all, BUT platforms must make it clear to investors that they must be prepared for the eventuality that instant access is not possible and could actually take 5 years if economy/loanbook turn sour, new lenders are reducing etc. Fees also need to be far more transparent, for all sell-out features. (3, 4, 5 and 6 are of relevance to anybody concerned about regulatory arbitrage)I dont think this is regulatory arbitrage. There are many BIG differences between a bank and the accounts discussed above. 1. no FSCS. 2. banks are lending as principle, the above are not. 3. banks are systemically important, the above are not. 4. banks DO guarantee liquidity. The above do NOT, or at least should not. They offer it where they are able to. 5. as far as collective investment schemes go, yes all of P2P frankly falls into that category, hence the recent exemption of P2P platforms from being CIS. there are many other differences also
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Post by meledor on Aug 17, 2016 9:33:48 GMT
The FCA is right to be concerned about recent developments in P2P particularly the risk of regulatory arbitrage. There needs to be greater regulation of those platforms offering products that are not true P2P. I have in mind products where the platform sits in the middle between borrower and lender enabling different (shorter) loan periods for the lender in a way that is different from merely offering a secondary market for a loan to be sold. So a platform offering an access account is making money on the spread with a longer term loan to the borrower and is operating exactly like a bank and needs to be regulated as such. In other words the platform has reintroduced a level of intermediation that P2P was supposed to be removing.
Also the FCA is concerned about the impact of provision funds and I think there will have to be some limit on these (5% of loan book?) with platforms above the limit subject to greater regulation.
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Post by propman on Aug 17, 2016 10:05:53 GMT
Because they have prior access to information. e.g. I am always annoyed when a loan that I have on the 2nd market at a discount because it is overdue - the minute the borrower unexpectedly pays up this loan is scooped up by someone. (Yes, it happened again today). Staff members are in a good position to do this That isn't what skin in the game means. It means that when a platform lists an asset backed loan, they are required to retain 5% of the loan so that their interests align with those of the lenders. Otherwise, the platform has no incentive to do due diligence and ensure that the loan is a viable proposition if they have no financial risk (it is not their money being lent). You're talking about insider trading which should not be allowed whatsoever. I work in the property industry where developers often take small equity stakes in the developments they manage for others. This does not provide alignment of interests because the profits are predominantly from fees for the developers and not the performance of the development. I think P2P is the same as any proportion is likely to be small and the return on this will be small compared to the fees the platform receives. Even first loss arrangements don't align interests fully as these remove the benefit to the provider to put effort into making significant recoveries as they will have lost their share unless most of the loan is recovered.
My issue with it is that it would weaken platforms when they are under pressure due to losses and so significantly increase platform risk - the risks I am most sensitive too. Personally I am conservative in my lending, but invest on the basis that the diversification I have means that the risk of losing a high proportion of my capital (without a general collapse in finance that would effect everything) is extremely low. I could not comfortably afford to lose more than 20% of my P2P balance, but am comfortable the risk of this is tiny. Anything that increases this is a concern to me.
- PM
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Post by rahafoorum on Aug 17, 2016 14:31:21 GMT
Proper rules for calculating and presenting main figures such as return, recovery and default rate. There are some industry best practices available from banking etc, but not all platforms use them. Currently it's possible to be extremely creative and show even a disaster as a desired or overwhelmingly optimistic outcome and most investors don't even realize what those numbers actually mean.
Edit: As an added benefit, it would also make numbers comparable between platforms. Currently it's essentially impossible in many cases.
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Jeepers
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Post by Jeepers on Aug 17, 2016 15:17:34 GMT
I don't know how practical it is but I'd like to see a time limit in which a borrower has to repay before the loan must enter default. Maybe 90 days? Or the loan has to be formally extended with interest paid.
Platforms shouldn't be allowed to continue allowing default interest to mount up as it makes a potential loss bigger.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Aug 17, 2016 15:36:06 GMT
1. More risk warnings 2. Ban "not a penny lost" advertising 3. A declaration on acceptance on each loan (property platforms) each investment (retail platforms) that may involve loss 4. Similar risk warning to equity investment e.g. past performance not a guide to future performance 5. No "sophistcaed investor" status required but each lender required to state that portfolio does not exceed x% of assets 6. Full disclosure of interests by Platform ( locutus ) 7. Standardisation of "values" ( registerme ) I don't agree with 5. Why should there be a % limit on P2P? If it was enforced it should also apply to stocks and shares, and other risky investment types. If it is to protect inexperienced lenders from themselves I would prefer some sort of sophisticated investor route rather than treat everyone like novices.
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Post by dualinvestor on Aug 17, 2016 15:43:27 GMT
Because if one goes the sophisticated investor route a) many current investors will be excluded (on income and assets qualifications) and b) P2P will never become "mass market" (which might, or might not, be desirable depending on your point of view)
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Aug 17, 2016 15:47:12 GMT
1. More risk warnings 2. Ban "not a penny lost" advertising 3. A declaration on acceptance on each loan (property platforms) each investment (retail platforms) that may involve loss 4. Similar risk warning to equity investment e.g. past performance not a guide to future performance 5. No "sophistcaed investor" status required but each lender required to state that portfolio does not exceed x% of assets 6. Full disclosure of interests by Platform ( locutus ) 7. Standardisation of "values" ( registerme ) I don't agree with 5. Why should there be a % limit on P2P? If it was enforced it should also apply to stocks and shares, and other risky investment types. If it is to protect inexperienced lenders from themselves I would prefer some sort of sophisticated investor route rather than treat everyone like novices. Its the criteria for what the FCA defines as Restricted Investors ie those who arent Sophisticated or HNW, no more than x% in unlisted investments
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Aug 17, 2016 15:54:59 GMT
There are no such restrictions on gambling (or other equally efficient ways to lose / waste money) so I don't see why should P2P be any different. The key thing is to ensure that lenders are presented with loan information that is clear, fair and comparable. What they then choose to do with it is their call.
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Post by propman on Aug 17, 2016 16:59:09 GMT
There are no such restrictions on gambling (or other equally efficient ways to lose / waste money) so I don't see why should P2P be any different. The key thing is to ensure that lenders are presented with loan information that is clear, fair and comparable. What they then choose to do with it is their call. I agree with this, it is inconsistent with how the financial markets are regulated. People who signed up for insurance they didn't need and couldn't claim on should apparently be protected from themselves (I exclude the cases when people were not made aware of its inclusion and the issue of overcharging), While someone who invested in an investment to meet their mortgage are not wholly responsible when performance didn't live up to expectations. Personally I think advisers should be shown to have misled to be liable rather than putting the onus on them nanny their clients, but that is not how it works elsewhere. I would have thought that it might be possible to rate P2Ps with some unrestricted, but some have more in common with equities than savings. As a result, they are only appropriate to most unsophisticated investors if the disclosure is equivalent to a listed company.
Personally I would also like to see platforms protected from the inevitable law suits when people lose money and the media find an innocuous Granny to be the face of the campaign.
- PM
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ablender
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Post by ablender on Aug 17, 2016 17:15:10 GMT
Because if one goes the sophisticated investor route a) many current investors will be excluded (on income and assets qualifications) and b) P2P will never become "mass market" (which might, or might not, be desirable depending on your point of view) I see it in this way. It is my money. It is my life. I have the right to do what I want, sophisticated or not. Just not meeting the criteria of "sophisticated" does not mean that I am stupid. After all why should not an investor take responsibility for his/her own action? Why should I be restricted to a small percentage of what I own when others can mortgage all they have and invested in a company, venture capital, call it what you want? This is why in my previous post I mentioned that valuation documents need to be available to investors with no wording that excludes them.
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Post by dualinvestor on Aug 17, 2016 18:04:57 GMT
Because if one goes the sophisticated investor route a) many current investors will be excluded (on income and assets qualifications) and b) P2P will never become "mass market" (which might, or might not, be desirable depending on your point of view) I see it in this way. It is my money. It is my life. I have the right to do what I want, sophisticated or not. Just not meeting the criteria of "sophisticated" does not mean that I am stupid. After all why should not an investor take responsibility for his/her own action? Why should I be restricted to a small percentage of what I own when others can mortgage all they have and invested in a company, venture capital, call it what you want? This is why in my previous post I mentioned that valuation documents need to be available to investors with no wording that excludes them. Most of that answer should be directed Greenwood2 I am not in favour of sophisticated investor status it's him/her who wanted it and my reply was telling him why I did not favour it. I am in favour of a more obvious statement that the person "investing" understands the risks and is taking responsibility but is not be lulled into a false sense of security.
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Post by martin44 on Aug 17, 2016 18:19:44 GMT
I would be very interested if someone could explain to me what criteria i need, for me to be classed as a "Sophisticated Investor"
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Post by dualinvestor on Aug 17, 2016 18:40:18 GMT
I would be very interested if someone could explain to me what criteria i need, for me to be classed as a "Sophisticated Investor" There is an official FCA definition which can be found somewhere on their web site, but I believe it is net assets (excluding home) of £250,000 or income greater than £100,000.
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