Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Aug 19, 2016 13:14:08 GMT
Many fixed term products have a 'penalty' for withdrawing early of x months interest. NS&I for one. Faulty comparison. The sell out feature allows you to sell your contract to another willing buyer in the market. If there is no buyer, you cannot sell out. NS&I has no market and performs a buyback for which they should be compensated. Besides, P2P is a democratisation of lending and should aspire to be better than traditional forms of finance. In P2P, if there is a willing buyer for a contract, why should the seller be penalised at all? It leads to perverse outcomes which have been well documented on here already. I was challenging the assertion that interest is never 'clawed back' on main stream products. In the case of RS it was done to stop gaming of the system by putting money into higher rate long term say 5 yr loans with the intention of cashing in after 1yr or 3yrs.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 13:19:33 GMT
In the case of RS it was done to stop gaming of the system by putting money into higher rate long term say 5 yr loans with the intention of cashing in after 1yr or 3yrs. Why is it 'gaming the system' if I invest at 6% for 5-years then want to sell out after 2 years to another willing buyer? If I sellout the remainder of that loan after 2 years, into a 3-year market trading at 5%, I am the one losing out, and a 3-year investor would be getting a great bargain off me!!! Why would RateSetter want to penalise that?
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Aug 19, 2016 14:00:17 GMT
Why would you do that?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 14:04:19 GMT
Because I might need the money unexpectedly? Or my risk appetite has changed? Any number of reasons. But who cares about the reason for selling out. The simple fact is, in that scenario I could be giving another RateSetter customer a great bargain, instead I am being penalised. Makes no sense to me at all.
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locutus
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Post by locutus on Aug 19, 2016 14:11:47 GMT
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locutus
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Post by locutus on Aug 19, 2016 14:16:09 GMT
Because I might need the money unexpectedly? Or my risk appetite has changed? Any number of reasons. But who cares about the reason for selling out. The simple fact is, in that scenario I could be giving another RateSetter customer a great bargain, instead I am being penalised. Makes no sense to me at all. It makes sense if you're RS. They get to charge you sell out fees and keep the difference in rates so they are the ones getting the great bargain.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 14:21:16 GMT
Yep, I should have said it makes no sense from a customers perspective.
Theres an obvious win-win in that scenario for an existing investor to get their money out and give a great bargain to a new investor if RS wanted. *IF*.
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Aug 19, 2016 14:31:14 GMT
In the case of RS it was done to stop gaming of the system by putting money into higher rate long term say 5 yr loans with the intention of cashing in after 1yr or 3yrs. Why is it 'gaming the system' if I invest at 6% for 5-years then want to sell out after 2 years to another willing buyer? If I sellout the remainder of that loan after 2 years, into a 3-year market trading at 5%, I am the one losing out, and a 3-year investor would be getting a great bargain off me!!! Why would RateSetter want to penalise that? Its gaming the system because they are amortising loans so the interest payments are a greater proportion of the repayments at the start of a 5 year loan than they would be for a 1 year loan. The rate is higher as well. So if you sell out early eg after 1 year you are getting a better return than you should ... hence the clawback. Its exactly the same as mainstream fixed rate accounts (MSE even highlight accounts that allow early withdrawals with penalties as giving a better short term rate than short term accounts even after penalty) £1000@6% for 5yrs (Year 1) earns £55.19 = 5.52% (uncompounded) £1000@6% for 1yr earns £32.80 = 3.28% £1000@4% for 1 yr earns £21.80 = 2.18% If there wasnt a penalty then everyone would do it and there would be an impact on rates.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 14:38:57 GMT
If I took out a 1k loan for 5 years, I wouldnt be selling out 1k after 2 years would I? The loan principal would have been reduced by 2 years worth of capital payments.
And the returns on the sold loan for the new investor would be calculated on that reduced principal.
Your point about amortization may be relevant for 1-year non-amortizing loans, but the 3-year market is amortizing as well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 14:41:17 GMT
I have to admit that seeing a 31 page note from the FCS fills me with dread, when will they learn to communicate, not just put together a committee to publish a dumb-ass document.
What do these guys want to know?
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Aug 19, 2016 14:42:38 GMT
I have to admit that seeing a 31 page note from the FCS fills me with dread, when will they learn to communicate, not just put together a committee to publish a dumb-ass document. Which is why you can just email them with whatever areas of interest / concern take your fancy.
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locutus
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Post by locutus on Aug 19, 2016 14:44:12 GMT
<abbr><snip></abbr>If there wasnt a penalty then everyone would do it and there would be an impact on rates. I have seen this point made before and it is incorrect. People can only sell out if there is someone to buy the loan part off them. There is no need for a penalty whatsoever.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 14:45:48 GMT
And of course, the impact on shorter term market rates could be *positive* if people were selling higher rate loans into them.
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metoo
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Post by metoo on Aug 19, 2016 15:20:32 GMT
Sophisticated Investor / HNW restrictions should not be relevant to any mainstream p2x platform lending. The risks are more akin to buying and selling shares, that any fool can do and lose money on, rather than professional private equity investing / unlisted company financing which is in a different scale of risk.
In Sophisticated Investor / HNW restricted investments the key is that the investor needs to be capable of understanding greater depth of financial complexity, or in a position to accept their investment may be wiped out and not complain.
However, p2x risk warnings should not be limited to small print / tick boxes, while presenting p2x like it's a higher interest type of savings account now that banks can't be trusted (I paraphrase).
I'm uncomfortable when risk warnings are effectively over-ridden by smooth promotions that gloss over risk. There have been other examples of this such as the Zero Dividend Preference shares scandal of some years ago. There is a level of communication needed to ensure less financially competent lenders understand how their money is at risk. Because some p2x is marketed as an alternative to savings accounts, there is a greater responsibility to ensure lenders understand the implications of the differences.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Aug 19, 2016 15:26:18 GMT
<abbr><snip></abbr>If there wasnt a penalty then everyone would do it and there would be an impact on rates. I have seen this point made before and it is incorrect. People can only sell out if there is someone to buy the loan part off them. There is no need for a penalty whatsoever. Why would anyone lend in a 3yr market if they can lend in a 5yr market at a higher rate and exit after 3yrs with no penalty? Result no 3yr market, and a fall in rates on the 5yr market as it becomes an up to 5yr market Edit: I am not posting about this any more on this thread as it is inappropriate.
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