SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Oct 2, 2016 7:52:30 GMT
The only statements I can find are Tax Statements where are "personal statements" hidden? I presume this means the normal account transaction statement.
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skippyonspeed
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Post by skippyonspeed on Oct 2, 2016 8:02:27 GMT
The only statements I can find are Tax Statements where are "personal statements" hidden? I presume this means the normal account transaction statement. I don't presume anything as far SS are concerned, ie if you choose 2 dates and there is no payment date within you just get a string of 0's!!!!!!
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duck
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Post by duck on Oct 2, 2016 8:14:39 GMT
The only statements I can find are Tax Statements where are "personal statements" hidden? I presume this means the normal account transaction statement. Yes, 'My Account/Transactions'. Each month when the interest run takes place it is dated the end of the previous month. Another 'anomaly' I noticed is that where a new loan goes live on the last day of the month (PBL130 this time) you can download a transaction statement after the loan has gone live that shows that cash has been deducted from the account but when the interest is added the next day it is entered on the statement before the drawdown i.e. my statement shows the PBL130 transaction after the interest has been paid which is patently not the case! If you only cut'n past the latest entries there is the possibility that you can end up with duplicate entries on your own tracking spreadsheets. The tax statement issue only arises for Company lenders since their Company years often end at month end, for personal lenders these issues have passed before 6th April.
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Post by meledor on Oct 2, 2016 8:25:27 GMT
I presume this means the normal account transaction statement. The tax statement issue only arises for Company lenders since their Company years often end at month end, for personal lenders these issues have passed before 6th April. Surely if you are operating a Company then you simply accrue the interest to the end of the accounting period?
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duck
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Post by duck on Oct 2, 2016 8:35:48 GMT
The tax statement issue only arises for Company lenders since their Company years often end at month end, for personal lenders these issues have passed before 6th April. Surely if you are operating a Company then you simply accrue the interest to the end of the accounting period? My accountants advice was to work on an 'interest paid' basis and not to take the accrued approach - which I believe in the strict word of the law is the correct approach. The accountants queried this with HMRC who told them that for this type of lending (as opposed to guaranteed income) 'interest paid' is appropriate.
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mikeh
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Post by mikeh on Oct 2, 2016 8:43:23 GMT
This is my first interest and I was quite surprised to see SS paying interest on each piece of loan, rounding it to the nearest penny. I was expecting they would add all the pieces' interest and round the result only in the end. As I see it, one could get a few pence more or less. This isn't the real problem, but someone could use this in his favour. For example, if I invest £5,100, in 30 days I get £50.30 (=5100*0.12*30/365). But if I buy 10,000 pieces of £0,51, I would get £100. (=10000*round(0.51*0.12*30/365) A bot could easily do this. Someone please tell me I am wrong. Yep you are wrong, they only show 2dp, not sure how many dp they work to but it could be 10 to 15 (AC say they work to 40dp but it all gets a bit silly after about 10. I tried an experiment a while back. After an irritating 2 hours I ended up with a loan part of about 42p. I was so p***ed off I thought I would use it as an experiment. I worked out how long it would take to earn just over 1p and I then sold it off on SM 1p at a time When the interest for that month was paid I did earn 1p, but all the loan parts showed £0.00 nb I just found it bizarre how fast each 1p sold. I think it was before FFF so it might have been a 'bot' Actually I think 0risk is right. Interest is calculated on each loan part separately at the end of each month and rounded to the nearest penny. I think if anyone used a bot to actually do this they would get banned pretty quickly.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Oct 2, 2016 8:45:16 GMT
It depends on the accounting policies that a company has chosen to adopt (it should say in the notes to the accounts). Mine recognises interest (and any other form of payment received, eg. cashback) as revenue on the date it is actually paid. In the P2P environment, I think that's the logical and prudent way of doing it. For example, there's an AC distressed loan (happily I don't hold it) that's notionally rolling up accrued default interest at 68%, yet I strongly suspect it won't all be paid!
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duck
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Post by duck on Oct 2, 2016 8:52:58 GMT
It depends on the accounting policies that a company has chosen to adopt (it should say in the notes to the accounts). Mine recognises interest (and any other form of payment received, eg. cashback) as revenue on the date it is actually paid. In the P2P environment, I think that's the logical and prudent way of doing it. For example, there's an AC distressed loan (happily I don't hold it) that's notionally rolling up accrued default interest at 68%, yet I strongly suspect it won't all be paid! Exactly. My company has worked in that way for many years and there has never been an issue. In the days of long term bonds (and similar) I used these to move 'income' into future years. To an extent this still applies to some P2P/P2B loans where interest is paid at term. The 68% default interest was exactly the case that caused me to question my accounting practices again with my accountants.
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Post by meledor on Oct 2, 2016 9:06:41 GMT
It depends on the accounting policies that a company has chosen to adopt (it should say in the notes to the accounts). Mine recognises interest (and any other form of payment received, eg. cashback) as revenue on the date it is actually paid. In the P2P environment, I think that's the logical and prudent way of doing it. For example, there's an AC distressed loan (happily I don't hold it) that's notionally rolling up accrued default interest at 68%, yet I strongly suspect it won't all be paid!
Obviously you would not accrue non-performing loans. The principle is that profits used in working out taxable profits should follow generally accepted accounting principles. But if you are doing it on a payments basis that's fine. I just don't see the issue raised was an 'anomaly'. You just have to be consistent from one year to the next.
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duck
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Post by duck on Oct 2, 2016 9:20:09 GMT
As I said, it is easily sorted at my end to take a consistent approach but if you are cash accounting strictly speaking the interest wasn't physically paid until October so should be in next years accounts ...... but the account downloadable statements state it was paid in September (and before a new loan went live) - I certainly couldn't have withdrawn it on the 30th but it now shows that I had that amount in credit ..... and then depending on the time of the day that you download a Tax Statement you can 'chose' what amount you want to be shown
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skippyonspeed
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Post by skippyonspeed on Oct 2, 2016 9:35:20 GMT
Yep you are wrong, they only show 2dp, not sure how many dp they work to but it could be 10 to 15 (AC say they work to 40dp but it all gets a bit silly after about 10. I tried an experiment a while back. After an irritating 2 hours I ended up with a loan part of about 42p. I was so p***ed off I thought I would use it as an experiment. I worked out how long it would take to earn just over 1p and I then sold it off on SM 1p at a time When the interest for that month was paid I did earn 1p, but all the loan parts showed £0.00 nb I just found it bizarre how fast each 1p sold. I think it was before FFF so it might have been a 'bot' Actually I think 0risk is right. Interest is calculated on each loan part separately at the end of each month and rounded to the nearest penny. I think if anyone used a bot to actually do this they would get banned pretty quickly. Hmmmm....... I stand by what I posted which was based on facts rather than supposition..........and if you were just goading me to try it.........No way, it's taken me 2 or 3 months to get my Live Loans parts down to <30 all nicely rounded to nearest 50 quid, bar this months interest payment!!!
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nick
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Post by nick on Oct 2, 2016 10:58:31 GMT
Surely if you are operating a Company then you simply accrue the interest to the end of the accounting period? My accountants advice was to work on an 'interest paid' basis and not to take the accrued approach - which I believe in the strict word of the law is the correct approach. The accountants queried this with HMRC who told them that for this type of lending (as opposed to guaranteed income) 'interest paid' is appropriate. Interesting advice from your accountant. Under UK company law, UK statutory accounts must be prepared under under either International Financial Reporting Standards ("IFRS") or UK Generally Accepted Accounting Practice ("UK GAAP"). One of the fundamental principals underpinning IFRS and UK GAAP (and most modern accounting practices) is the use of accruals basis of accounting. Interest should always be accounted on an accruals basis (rather than a cash basis) in UK statutory accounts. However, if differences are not significant, you can state you use a compliant accrual accounting policy, but still give the cash accounting figure on the basis that it is not materially different (and thus materially correct). It would be unusual to actually state in the accounts that you are using a cash accounting policy as this would be non-compliant with either IFRS or UK GAAP and you would be obliged to explain this non-compliance and effectively highlight that the accounts are unlawful. The only lawful reason for not being compliant with either set of accounting standards is if compliance would not result in the accounts presenting a 'true and fair view', often referred to as the true and fair override. There are very limited instances of such override being used. Tax is based on statutory accounts after certain tax adjustments (eg treatment of capital expenditure etc) and thus tax on interest is normally on an accruals basis. However, since 2013, small unincorporated businesses (ie sole traders and general partnerships comprising of individuals) have been allowed to prepare tax accounts on a cash basis (as it is simpler and more widely understood). Unincorporated entities are not subject to the Companies Act and are not required to prepare statutory accounts, with their financial reporting requirements being those specified by HMRC under tax law (which generally states that these have to be prepared under UK GAAP with exceptions such as this one). The above analysis is probably completely OTT given that the difference between the accrual and cash value of interest reported for any 12 month period is unlikely to material for the full year figure (as you are probably still capturing 12 months interest with only a small cut-off error at the start and end of the period), but I did find it curious that you would actually state that you use cash accounting in your statutory accounts.
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0risk
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Post by 0risk on Oct 2, 2016 13:39:42 GMT
Mikeh, do the terms and conditions cover these kinds of operation? I can't see how one can be banned for this. My example was a bit exagerated. I can give other distortions caused by this rounding system. For example, I like to puth £20 ou £10 in a loan for diversification. If I put £10 I get £0.10 a month But if I put £9.70 I also get £0.10. Instead of having £100, I can get the same interest with ten pieces of £9.70.
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0risk
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Post by 0risk on Oct 2, 2016 13:50:22 GMT
This is my first interest and I was quite surprised to see SS paying interest on each piece of loan, rounding it to the nearest penny. I was expecting they would add all the pieces' interest and round the result only in the end. As I see it, one could get a few pence more or less. This isn't the real problem, but someone could use this in his favour. For example, if I invest £5,100, in 30 days I get £50.30 (=5100*0.12*30/365). But if I buy 10,000 pieces of £0,51, I would get £100. (=10000*round(0.51*0.12*30/365) A bot could easily do this. Someone please tell me I am wrong. Yep you are wrong, they only show 2dp, not sure how many dp they work to but it could be 10 to 15 (AC say they work to 40dp but it all gets a bit silly after about 10. I tried an experiment a while back. After an irritating 2 hours I ended up with a loan part of about 42p. I was so p***ed off I thought I would use it as an experiment. I worked out how long it would take to earn just over 1p and I then sold it off on SM 1p at a time When the interest for that month was paid I did earn 1p, but all the loan parts showed £0.00 nb I just found it bizarre how fast each 1p sold. I think it was before FFF so it might have been a 'bot' I think you'd need 51p to get 1p of interest in a 30 days month. BTW, did you make your spreadsheet available for download?
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skippyonspeed
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Post by skippyonspeed on Oct 2, 2016 14:54:22 GMT
Yep you are wrong, they only show 2dp, not sure how many dp they work to but it could be 10 to 15 (AC say they work to 40dp but it all gets a bit silly after about 10. I tried an experiment a while back. After an irritating 2 hours I ended up with a loan part of about 42p. I was so p***ed off I thought I would use it as an experiment. I worked out how long it would take to earn just over 1p and I then sold it off on SM 1p at a time When the interest for that month was paid I did earn 1p, but all the loan parts showed £0.00 nb I just found it bizarre how fast each 1p sold. I think it was before FFF so it might have been a 'bot' I think you'd need 51p to get 1p of interest in a 30 days month. BTW, did you make your spreadsheet available for download? I put my hands up, you caught me out, I just guessed at a number because I was too lazy/drunk to look it up at the time, but it was a lot!!!!!! I 've just checked they actually started as 2 tiddly part loans which ended up as 17 - 1p parts held for 86 days = each part earning 0.00028273972603p according to my spreadsheet 30 - 1p parts held for 61 days = each part earning 0.00020054794521p according to my spreadsheet They were all sold on the same day. Total interest 0.010829589048p according to my spreadsheet SS Part loans sold Page indicates every part as 0.00p interest earnt with a Total interest of 0.01p, which shows they must work to quite a few dp as over 2/3months the amount of interest is < 0.005p/month As far as making my spreadsheet available, sorry but no it took me a long time and lot of head scratching!!......also I designed it to give me the edge at the end of the month ie. spend my interest the night before without the same sort of pressure after interest payment. You seem to know your way round the basic formulae and I have described it a lot of detail with the reasons, so you could diy. Another reason why, I downloaded another sp to some else a while back, I discovered later that person, or someone they had passed it on to trying to sell it on ebay!!
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