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Post by yorkshireman on Jul 10, 2014 11:51:11 GMT
The BoE won't increase rates to above inflation unless bond markets force them to do so by panicking and dumping Gilts. Such a situation would also involve a currency crisis, as if you're having doubts about a Government's ability to repay its debts, the last thing you're going to want to do is hold the currency of that Country. The reason the BoE will keep base rates below inflation by design is to erode the real value of the UKs National Debt; currently somewhere in the region of 90% of GDP. It also follows that a rise in base rates will increase the UK Government's costs of servicing this vast National Debt. Just my opinion, but it's not in the present interests of the British Establishment to have positive real interest rates due to the debt pile, so until all credibility of the BoE is lost, any increases will be nominal only, i.e. below the rate of inflation (which when you look at how Government statisticians calculate CPI, is running at rates in excess of the projected 2% or so it's currently being touted to be). We are operating in an environment of Financial Repression, and I'd venture to suggest that a return to the 'normal' is going to be violently disruptive rather than managed. To this end, I consider the author of that article to be talking complete and utter tripe. P2P lending will continue to remain attractive as long as savers continue to be screwed over by the Establishment, and I see this situation continuing for a number of years until balance is restored by the markets (when the current theme of Central Banker Omnipotence has run its course). Spot on, you’ve articulated my thoughts far better than I did.
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Post by yorkshireman on Jul 10, 2014 11:55:30 GMT
If I try and crack a rubbish pun/joke, we are are all in the same (inflatable) boat. ;-) That comment should have been under “Dad jokes”
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james
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Post by james on Jul 10, 2014 13:34:10 GMT
I agree that there will be both increased interest rate competition and relaxed lending standards at traditional lenders. I don't agree that it's doom for P2x but I do think that it is a competitive challenge. Lets consider my options today:
1. Almost anyone can open a Santander 123 account and get 3% taxable interest with full FSCS protection on up to £20,000 deposited, plus rebates on bills to cover the cost of the account and make a profit, probably. 2. I can get about 3% increasing with Bank Rate tax free using a mortgage offset account. I'm potentially liable to higher rate income tax and that's the equivalent of 5% taxable, or 3.75% at basic rate. 3. Typically there are VCTs offering the equivalent of 8-9% and those using P2x heavily are also much more likely than usual to be suitable candidates for VCT use. 4. Pensions of course. I'm of an age where money in a pension is not locked up so much any more, in the not so distant future. the tax relief plus the underlying investments can beat some P2x returns. 5. The higher rate P2x, like Bondora. Impressively high rates and good default and collections performance. It's doing an excellent job of providing effective interest rate arbitrage for UK investors but is suffering from unsurprising excess of investor demand over supply, though of course with Euro/Pound exchange rate issues to consider.
On the personal rather than business credit side I don't have a shortage of options to borrow on credit cards at effective interest rates below 3% using 0% for purchase cards or balance or money transfers in possibly creative combinations. Ordinary personal loans can be had even at 3.9% for good candidates in the £7,500-£10,000 range with 8% for smaller amounts.
For business borrowing I do not have sufficient knowledge of the market to comment in any useful way so I'll leave that to others.
Can Wellesley compete?
For me, clearly not for any term shorter than five years because the before tax interest rate may well be below the mortgage equivalent. An increase in Bank Rate will make that even harder because of the tax relief leverage effect on the return. For five years where Wellesley advertises 6.76%? Maybe, except for five years I can use VCTs to get 8-9% tax free after allowing for the effect of the 30% tax relief on the purchase price. Or I can just know that the long term UK stock market return is around 5% plus inflation, perhaps 8-9% at the moment if I ignore the current cyclically adjusted P/E, and is partly tax free due to CGT allowance, or more so if in an ISA. So even though I like a lot about the Wellesley product I doubt that I will use it at present: it's being out-competed by my other options.
Can other P2x compete? Some, certainly, but the interest rate margin for taking the investment risk is not particularly high at present in many cases.
It's likely that this will be the year in which I make my first use of VCTs.
At present one advantage p2x has is that many perceive it to be a savings product rather than an investment product, so a lot of people don't seem to be comparing it to other investments. I don't think that advantage will persist long term.
Overall I'm optimistic about P2x but still I think there are significant challenges to deal with.
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Post by wellesleyco on Jul 10, 2014 14:23:25 GMT
james, thank for that concise answer. I think the majority of people will agree with you and that also the diversification is very important of a number of different products. While our rates have taken a step lower, it does not mean that they are unable to rise with the market also. As there are a range of different p2p/p2b platforms lending to different sectors I think there will always be a range of returns on offer comparable to the cost of borrowing in those markets. A very interesting step taken in the US yesterday was the rating agency Standard & Poor giving a rating to a tranch of loans by a company called SoFi. ( article here FT so subscription required). This was sold yielding 3% and this suggests that the confidence is growing in the P2P space over there to provide stable returns. If the market this side of the pond were to sustain the growth currently seen and the underwriting/collections performance the rates may begin falling behind that of VCTs however I do believe that P2P will remain able to provide higher returns than banks. The Tax relied under the NISA may come in due course and therefore be an added incentive to savers. I agree there are challenges and there is a slight perception to it, however the industry make take a turn one way or the other in the future, but certainly not disappear.
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Post by chielamangus on Jul 12, 2014 13:35:10 GMT
While everybody here is agreeing with each other, may I put in a discordant note? First, the P2P investors/savers are not an homogenous bunch. They are there for different reasons. Most of the contributors to this forum seem to be investment-savvy and highly interested in maximising their returns on their portfolio, but it is obvious that there are a heck of lot out there who do not share these characteristics. Can we really draw conclusions about the future of P2P on the basis of the opinions of the former who form a minority? Second, while I agree that there are many good reasons from a government perspective to keep interest rates low for as long as possible, I see no reason why the transition to 'normal' rates should be violently disruptive. It surely depends on the pace of change. I always thought I was a Jeremiah until I read the posts here!
I think there is a lot of truth in the original article by Hunt. He does not forecast the end of P2P but adaptation to a different world. Obviously, the banks and the building societies will one day be more competitive, and that will impinge on P2P. We should also differentiate between the different P2P models that exist - those that demand the investor take some time to consider the viability of the investment (FC and AC, for example), and those that make the decision for us (RS and Wellesley, for example). The latter are much more attractive for investors without much free time and those without any interest in business and investment analysis. And this segment, I suggest, is numerically the larger, though whether it is the larger in terms of investment I have no idea. The P2P organisations will have this information and will have a much better handle on how many of their investors are long-term players, but they are unlikely to tell us. It is this segment - the ones who aren't watching their portfolio everyday - which is likely to revert to traditional forms of saving when the tide turns. I count myself as one of them, unless the likes of RS and W can stay ahead of the game. But for FC and the like, I see this just as a flirtation - these girls are just too demanding of my time!
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merlin
Minor shareholder in Assetz and many other companies.
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Post by merlin on Jul 12, 2014 17:02:44 GMT
To answer the original question my views are as follows. In the short term popularity will rise and rates will gradually reduce. Over the next few years we will inevitably see some of the smaller entrants go to the wall. This will then lead to a period of consolidation and acquisition leaving a group of larger, healthier facilitators in the field. Somewhere along this timeline the FCA will increase the controls it holds over providers. This may include provision to enforce some form of insurance against failure. My crystal ball is now completely fogged up so I will leave to others to add or contradict the above.
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j
Member of DD Central
Penguins are very misunderstood!
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Post by j on Jul 27, 2014 18:24:33 GMT
To answer the original question my views are as follows. In the short term popularity will rise and rates will gradually reduce. Over the next few years we will inevitably see some of the smaller entrants go to the wall. This will then lead to a period of consolidation and acquisition leaving a group of larger, healthier facilitators in the field. Somewhere along this timeline the FCA will increase the controls it holds over providers. This may include provision to enforce some form of insurance against failure. My crystal ball is now completely fogged up so I will leave to others to add or contradict the above. I would also add that another recession is clearly on the horizon but not before elections are over. The national debt, at some £1.3 trillion, is staggering & frightening & I daren't contemplate how this endless supply of credit is going to end & how devastating it will be for families & individuals who have the attitude of 'spend today, worry in a few years' time' How will all this affect, if any, p2p lending? No one knows, we'll just have to wait & see
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Jul 27, 2014 18:53:15 GMT
Over the next few years we will inevitably see some of the smaller entrants go to the wall. Another thing that will happen over the next few years -- heck, it's happening now -- is that some borrowers will fail to keep up their payments, and their security will have to be liquidated. In some cases, the amount raised will be insufficient to provide investors with the returns they were expecting, and in some cases losses will be incurred. Some platforms will handle this inevitable eventuality better than others. And some investors will come to realise that the bigger returns they have been offered involved taking higher risks. It's part of the "There's no such thing as a free lunch" reality that some savers (investors) might not have considered in deciding whether -- and how much -- to get involved. Some people will decide to exit the P2P arena completely, and some will move down the risk/return curve. The critical question as this develops is whether P2P can continue to grow. If more people join than leave, then a bit of consolidation might result. If more people leave than join, the effect would be a lot more significant, and could become ugly. Finally, if j1 is correct and the overall economic future isn't as rosy as we might like to think it is, then the disruption to P2P could be exciting/interesting.
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Post by Ton ⓉⓞⓃ on Aug 2, 2014 14:24:37 GMT
I'd go as far as to say that we are at the 'end of the beginning' - for the last several months i have been steadily increasing my investment in p2p but with very clear limits (£20 per exposure for RBS, £50 per exposure for FC, £100 for FK and £500 for Assetz) but in recent weeks the lack of loans means I have hit a wall with everything pretty dead apart from the dreaded FC which still has plenty on <snip> As a 'natural experiment' i set up two FC accounts, one chasing 11%+ loans and the other settling for c.8% loans. Despite a few thousand in the latter one in c£20 chunks, i haven't had a single default, the higher interest one has loads. One day i'll work out which one makes me the most money Jack I like your natural experiment. I remember years ago Zopa, I think it was, warning not to simply chase the highest rates as you maybe also be chasing the biggest defaulters. I thought I'd listened but when the great recession hit I realized I hadn't. So:
| Number of Loans
| Interest Rate
| collections | 6 | 8.6% | arrangement | 40 | 12.30% | default | 199 | 13.62% | closed | 1366 | 10.17% |
This is a little gash, it's my standing at the moment which I think shows that when a recession hits you really should've been less greedy. Collection, Arrangement and then Default might be a normal course of someone who's going to default. Though a Borrower could stay in collections or stay in the arrangement and not necessarily go to default. The point is the increasing interest rates between the three states. The closed loans are roughly all 'successful' loans without serious problems. I had over 200 defaults but some must've repaired their credit. So I could've found a better one.
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