stevio
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Post by stevio on Oct 20, 2016 12:00:08 GMT
Thanks all for replies! First I must say it is an interesting thought to reach the "under tax threshold passive income status": 2x (11,000 Personal allowance + 5,000 dividend (from own ltd I assume) + 1,000 interests (P2P) + Unlimited (ISA)) = 34,000 upwardsWhen owning a home and earning this especially outside (as far as possible) of London that is a great living. But then if you make a lot of interests in P2P then they will at some point breach the thresholds and become a tax-payer so there must be something else. Probably living abroad but this is not really "UK-only-non-tax-payer-but-tax-payer-somewhere-else". So I'm wondering if there is 3rd option that the posters talk about. I think its actually: 2x (11,000 Personal allowance + 5,000 dividend (from own ltd I assume) + 1,000 interests (P2P) + 5,000 interests (P2P) + Unlimited (ISA)) = 44,000 upwards Some countries have preferential tax laws, Ireland for CT and some others for IT (I think james has mentioned maybe Portugal in the past and I imagine Cayman Islands, Guernsey etc have preferential tax laws) Also its legal to have offshore accounts, but when the funds are draw down in the UK, they become subject to UK tax, but you can delay the draw down of the funds to when is beneficial for you (ie pay in when high rate tax payer and draw down when retire) With a company, there are other ways of legal tax planning - company pensions, choosing levels of salary and dividends etc, building up funds in company then extracting via ER etc
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Investboy
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Trying to recover from P2P revolution
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Post by Investboy on Oct 20, 2016 14:43:52 GMT
... 2x (11,000 Personal allowance + 5,000 dividend (from own ltd I assume) + 1,000 interests (P2P) + 5,000 interests (P2P) + Unlimited (ISA)) = 44,000 upwards ... Where is this 5,000 interests (P2P) coming from? Why is it tax-free? How is it called?
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Post by dualinvestor on Oct 20, 2016 14:52:23 GMT
... 2x (11,000 Personal allowance + 5,000 dividend (from own ltd I assume) + 1,000 interests (P2P) + 5,000 interests (P2P) + Unlimited (ISA)) = 44,000 upwards ... Where is this 5,000 interests (P2P) coming from? Why is it tax-free? How is it called? Some people set up Limited companies to invest in P2P, there are two obvious advantages, a small salary can continue to earn National Insurance contributions at zero cost and if you draw £5,000 or less in dividends from the company there is a special allowance to cover that. You can run that alongside a personal account to still get the savings allowance. The disadvantage is bureacracy and cost, especially if you are not confident enough to prepare the accounts and run the payroll. You should take professional advice on this (i.e. not only rely on the various threads here) as it is possible that HMRC might consider the whole set up a sham upn investigation.
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Post by propman on Oct 20, 2016 14:57:52 GMT
Thanks all for replies! First I must say it is an interesting thought to reach the "under tax threshold passive income status": 2x (11,000 Personal allowance + 5,000 dividend (from own ltd I assume) + 1,000 interests (P2P) + Unlimited (ISA)) = 34,000 upwardsWhen owning a home and earning this especially outside (as far as possible) of London that is a great living. But then if you make a lot of interests in P2P then they will at some point breach the thresholds and become a tax-payer so there must be something else. Probably living abroad but this is not really "UK-only-non-tax-payer-but-tax-payer-somewhere-else". So I'm wondering if there is 3rd option that the posters talk about. I think its actually: 2x (11,000 Personal allowance + 5,000 dividend (from own ltd I assume) + 1,000 interests (P2P) + 5,000 interests (P2P) + Unlimited (ISA)) = 44,000 upwards Some countries have preferential tax laws, Ireland for CT and some others for IT (I think james has mentioned maybe Portugal in the past and I imagine Cayman Islands, Guernsey etc have preferential tax laws) Also its legal to have offshore accounts, but when the funds are draw down in the UK, they become subject to UK tax, but you can delay the draw down of the funds to when is beneficial for you (ie pay in when high rate tax payer and draw down when retire) With a company, there are other ways of legal tax planning - company pensions, choosing levels of salary and dividends etc, building up funds in company then extracting via ER etc I thought that a UK resident had to pay tax on most overseas income unless covered by a double tax treaty or if they were non-UK domiciled and paying the annual fee to retain the remittance basis! I think there are some UK products that are taxable on maturity 'though.
- PM
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Post by dualinvestor on Oct 20, 2016 15:07:14 GMT
I thought that a UK resident had to pay tax on most overseas income unless covered by a double tax treaty or if they were non-UK domiciled and paying the annual fee to retain the remittance basis! I think there are some UK products that are taxable on maturity 'though.
- PM
In general that is correct, there are various anomolies covered in the various treaties (e.g. pensions received from an overseas government in respect of government service, like, say, working as a teacher in a state run school in France) and some income is firstly taxable in the country where it is earned, eg rent, but that remains taxable in the UK jusst with a credit for any tax paid in the country where it arose. There are pending changes to non-domiciled status.
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stevio
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Post by stevio on Oct 20, 2016 15:11:47 GMT
I think its actually: 2x (11,000 Personal allowance + 5,000 dividend (from own ltd I assume) + 1,000 interests (P2P) + 5,000 interests (P2P) + Unlimited (ISA)) = 44,000 upwards Some countries have preferential tax laws, Ireland for CT and some others for IT (I think james has mentioned maybe Portugal in the past and I imagine Cayman Islands, Guernsey etc have preferential tax laws) Also its legal to have offshore accounts, but when the funds are draw down in the UK, they become subject to UK tax, but you can delay the draw down of the funds to when is beneficial for you (ie pay in when high rate tax payer and draw down when retire) With a company, there are other ways of legal tax planning - company pensions, choosing levels of salary and dividends etc, building up funds in company then extracting via ER etc I thought that a UK resident had to pay tax on most overseas income unless covered by a double tax treaty or if they were non-UK domiciled and paying the annual fee to retain the remittance basis! I think there are some UK products that are taxable on maturity 'though.
- PM
Unless changed, offshore accounts used to not be taxed until you return the funds to the UK - key is the flexibility of when you do this
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Post by dualinvestor on Oct 20, 2016 15:14:57 GMT
It has changed, many years ago.
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stevio
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Post by stevio on Oct 20, 2016 16:18:36 GMT
... 2x (11,000 Personal allowance + 5,000 dividend (from own ltd I assume) + 1,000 interests (P2P) + 5,000 interests (P2P) + Unlimited (ISA)) = 44,000 upwards ... Where is this 5,000 interests (P2P) coming from? Why is it tax-free? How is it called? Savings starting rate band 5k + Personal savings allowance 1k
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james
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Post by james on Oct 20, 2016 20:47:53 GMT
The Portugal scheme mentioned by stevio doesn't make someone a non-taxpayer, rather it sets a zero income tax rate for non-Portugese pension income for those who opt in to it. Tax is still due, the rate is just 0%. The double taxation treaty with Portugal provides that income will be taxed in the country of tax residence. The 75% taxable part of a pension pot is income even if taken as one or a few lumps so you can take out the whole 75% and have a nil income tax cost. HMRC will charge you as if the transaction happened in the UK if you return to the UK in the following few years unless the amount is below a set limit.
A UK tax resident who is domiciled in the UK is due income tax on foreign investments as of the date when the interest is paid into the foreign account, you are not allowed to choose when to bring the money into the UK and only then pay tax on it. Just like any UK account. A non-dom does get to choose the option of paying the tax when the money is brought into the UK instead.
While a UK tax resident, unlimited "income" in the UK is free of income tax from:
1. ISA. 2. VCT dividends - tax exempt, so regardless of your tax bracket.
3. Profits from sales of simple debts on P2P secondary markets are tax exempt unless considered by HMRC to be trading (as a trade, not as a trader). Platforms that allow trading at a premium and which have loans (either all or just some) that pay interest at maturity are of interest for this potential. (Don't sell to your own ISA or pension at a non-market price, the platform should have monitoring that would catch this, particularly a sale to an ISA at below value ISA limit breaching scheme] or purchase by a pension at above value [pension liberation scheme].)
Large amounts of income can have tax eliminated due to tax relief on the purchase of:
4. VCT, 30% of purchase price up to £200k of buys a year, relief can be given by tax code change in year of purchase if in PAYE. 5. EIS, 30% of purchase price up to £1 million of buys a year. 6. SEIS, 50% of purchase price up to £100,000 of buys a year.
The reliefs for those three are capped at the income tax otherwise due in the tax year of purchase. Each has a minimum holding period and if sold within that period the relief must be repaid. They allow you to eliminate much income tax if you can afford to defer the relevant portion of your income for the minimum holding period.
Other things include:
7. Foreign investment trust withdrawals of up to 5% of initial investment per year are treated as return of capital and are tax free, you can accumulate the 5% if not used in a particular year, total capped at 100% of initial investment.
8. A person aged between 55 and 74 inclusive can pay up to their qualifying income (usually earned income) into a pension and almost immediately take out the 25% tax free lump sum. Also capped at the annual allowance level currently £40k but with carry-forward from the past three years available if you were in any pension scheme during that year. Take a penny of the taxable 75% and the allowance is reduced to £10k per year and carry forward is eliminated. Also less for those with high incomes who have lower allowances. A 55-74 year old person with no qualifying income who has £2,700 of personal allowance unused can pay in £2,880 net and withdraw £3,600 each year with no income tax due, a gain of £720 a year. A person under 75 who has a life expectancy of less than a year can take 100% of a pension pot tax free and still make more contributions, they do not have to pay any tax if they don't die until later or after a normal life but the qualifying requirement is a little severe for most of us.
9. There are amount-limited friendly society investments that pay tax exempt but the limits are very low and the investments aren't really worth owning anyway.
10. Premium Bonds and not currently available various other potential NS&I schemes.
11. Rent a room.
12. The usual personal allowance, savings allowance and dividend allowance. Also CGT allowance.
13. Purchased life annuities have a portion of their income treated as a return of capital. The rates are so dire that this is not really a desirable option to pursue in most cases.
14. Immediate needs annuities can have money paid to a care home directly free of income tax but since you're normally within a couple of years of death at the time of purchase this is not a product of interest to most of us.
15. Life insurance or assurance can be used to provide someone tax exempt money at death, outside an estate, and can be a useful tax dodge sometimes, whether by the to be deceased or a party with a sufficiently close relationship and insurable interest.
But those just reduce the potential tax bill, they don't make the person not subject to income tax. Those saying they are non-taxpayers usually seem to mean that their income is within their allowances but in a place like this it can also mean being tax resident in a place with no tax cost for P2P.
I've undoubtedly missed something but that's a fair list to get started with.
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on Oct 21, 2016 21:52:30 GMT
Oohh just remembered another one:
Capital gains tax free 11k (22k for a couple) per year.
This thread has really helped me focus on my tax planning for this and future years.
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Post by Icarus Unleashed on Oct 22, 2016 4:06:02 GMT
Move to a jurisdiction with no income or capital gains tax (in a way that ensures you are no longer tax-resident in the UK for income tax purposes - the mere act of moving doesn't always mean that you immediately become a non-tax payer in the UK). Invest in UK P2P at a level where the income does not exceed a threshold that will mean you are no longer a non-tax payer.
Note: for this to work you obviously need to have very little or no other UK source income (otherwise the UK-source income + your P2P earnings will start to push your income to a level where you'll need to pay tax).
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james
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Post by james on Oct 22, 2016 7:28:10 GMT
Yes, that's possible. Since I've investigated it a bit for my own possible future use - maybe in Portugal initially:) - I'll expand on it a bit for anyone who might want to know a little more. Tax residence is normally on a full tax year basis and you can notify HMRC that you are not going to be a UK tax payer even while still in the UK if you expect not to be a UK tax resident for the tax year. So normally it would be whole tax year taxed in UK and whole tax year taxed in other places. But there is a split year rule for the year you leave the UK described starting on page 52 of the Statutory Residence Test document. There's a tool to help with the checks and the Statutory Residence Test document which has a flowchart and set of rules that can be worked through for planning when to not be in the UK. The rules can be quite fiddly for those with mixed years and a potential home in more than one country at any point during the tax year. Page 29 has a sort of summary of how those in such situations might need to act to sufficiently sever UK ties to become not UK resident for a tax year: if you work out which ties you have you can work out how many days you could be in the UK and still not be tax resident, if none of the more definitive automatic rules earlier on in the document apply.
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