acky
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Post by acky on Nov 1, 2016 15:02:36 GMT
Doesn't seem to have been many loans coming on to the PM so far this week (apart from a number of unattractive Property loans). Have borrowers realised that they can they can pull their applications, resubmit in 6 days' time and get a better rate? By the same token a few additional D's and E's coming in before the rates get worse would also be welcome, but not seemingly forthcoming. There was a D yesterday that took a D-Eternity to fill (i.e. about 4 hours). Definition of E-ternity is 4 seconds.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2016 15:39:25 GMT
Well the good news is FC do not appear to have "edited" out the negative responses on their blog, the bad news is that the majority of the comments are very negative and FC have stopped responding. I have an image of a man with hands over his ears shouting "I'm not listening".
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Nov 1, 2016 16:42:49 GMT
... Meanwhile, there's been a bit of a sell-off in the FCIF investment trust, which is back down to around NAV. Doesn't Samir own quite a few shares in this (about 150,000 as I recall)?
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acky
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Post by acky on Nov 1, 2016 18:15:42 GMT
We've all assumed that these rate changes represent an overall sizeable net reduction in rates. I certainly thought so and found FC's claim that the net expected return would be 7.0% (compared with the 7.1% they were saying before) to be quite incredulous. But I was wrong. I have analysed the loan book from the introduction of fixed rates last year up to a couple of days ago and I find the results quite surprising.
There have been, by my calculation, 4,380 fixed rate loans issued to the Retail market (including WL rejects) in that time, of which 612 are Property, leaving 3,768 SME. I exclude Property from my further analysis as there's no indication that these rates will change. Total loan value of these 3,768 SME loans is £237m. The average interest rate, weighted by loan amount, is 10.00%. If all these loans were issued at the new rates, the weighted average rate would be 9.91%, a rather small reduction. A key factor in this is that the low band rate reductions are lower and the high band rate increases are higher on 5 year loans than on the shorter loans, and 5 year loans account for 64% by value of all these loans.
Moreover, if the calculation is, as it should be, weighted not only by the value of the loan, but also by its term, the weighted average rate has been 10.11% and would fall only to 10.10% on the new rates. A+ loans make a contribution of -0.31% to this comparison, A -0.15%, B -0.03%, C +0.16%, D +0.19% and E +0.14%. The total value of D (5%) and E (4%) loans is quite small (A+ is 33%), but the rate increases on D and E are substantial.
So I conclude that FC's projection of the impact of this change is probably correct (in so far as it goes). But of course, there is a very important assumption underlying this comparison which is that the same amount and mix of business would have been written on the new rates as was done on the old rates. Without a shift in the grade assessment criteria (and, of course, we know Flexible Categorisation wouldn't do that ) this surely won't be the case according to pure market forces as they will now be much more competitive at the A+/A end of the market and much less so at the D/E end. So surely either the weighted average return will go down, or the risk will go up. Either way, investors will have to take more risk to generate the same return.
I hope this helps add some facts to the emotion!
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Nov 2, 2016 8:45:14 GMT
/mod hat off
The short summary is 'lower rates on A+ loans which there are lots of, and will be more of, higher rates on D/Es which are as scarce as hens' teeth, and are shortly going to be extinct'. 8?.
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blender
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Post by blender on Nov 2, 2016 9:59:41 GMT
/mod hat off The short summary is 'lower rates on A+ loans which there are lots of, and will be more of, higher rates on D/Es which are as scarce as hens' teeth, and are shortly going to be extinct'. 8?. Quite right. And this is deliberate, I think, because they cannot afford the staff time to manage the D & E loans. They get the same fee for an A+ loan which just repays without any work on collections and recoveries. And another thing, that claim to 7% net (weighted average) is not what can be expected by an autobidder, since it is buoyed up by large property loans at 8%+ (unchanged), which by diversity rules will be much less of a factor in an autobidder portfolio. I reckon an autobidder will lose about 1% and will be very lucky to get 6.5% going forward. They really need that IFISA. For me it is now only property loans at 10% or above, sold before the end game.
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bg
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Post by bg on Nov 2, 2016 10:07:14 GMT
/mod hat off The short summary is 'lower rates on A+ loans which there are lots of, and will be more of, higher rates on D/Es which are as scarce as hens' teeth, and are shortly going to be extinct'. 8?. If that is the case then the average net return of 7% claimed by FC and corroborated by acky will soon decrease. The proof will be in the pudding and the information is all there for people to analyse and hold FC to account if necessary.
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blender
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Post by blender on Nov 2, 2016 12:17:07 GMT
Just to clarify, I was not disagreeing with acky's valuable analysis, that the net return on all non-property loans offered on the partial board since fixed rates would not be much less using the new rates. However, there have been two significant changes during that time. Firstly that the E band loans which were once systematically avoided by whole loan lenders are now taken. So that over the whole period since fixed rate 5% of partial non property loans were E. But over the last 500 partial non-property loans only 2% were E. Going forward the effect of reduced 60 month E loans on the partial board will increase the reduction. Secondly, the whole loan lenders are now taking no property loans at all, which means that the mix on the partial board is further distorted in favour of A+. What I mistrust is FC's claim that for the 100 loans before 19th Oct, the well diversified lender (assuming the partial board used?) would expect to make 7%. Of course starting from scratch that new lender would get a piece of all the property projects at the higher rates they now have. And presumably they would include all the D & E loans, which in practice does not happen. Going forward the Autobidder would soon find that the 7% was quite unattainable.
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Post by driain on Nov 2, 2016 14:05:42 GMT
Just out of interest I did the calculation of my average rate for the last 100 loans (116 parts) I bought before 19th Oct. My strategy uses manual selection of loans generally in A+,A and B bands with a few Cs and maintaining diversity. My loan parts are all the same size so I did a straight average of rate after fees and bad debts and the figure came out (wait for it!) 7% (actually 6.9914%).
So maybe FC's estimate is not too bad.
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blender
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Post by blender on Nov 2, 2016 17:40:57 GMT
Just out of interest I did the calculation of my average rate for the last 100 loans (116 parts) I bought before 19th Oct. My strategy uses manual selection of loans generally in A+,A and B bands with a few Cs and maintaining diversity. My loan parts are all the same size so I did a straight average of rate after fees and bad debts and the figure came out (wait for it!) 7% (actually 6.9914%). So maybe FC's estimate is not too bad. Did you apply the new rates? If the 7% is on the new rates, then what did you get on the existing rates you bought at, please? The difference is important.
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Post by driain on Nov 2, 2016 19:34:03 GMT
Slightly embarrassingly I put in the old rate calculation. Using the new rates I get an average interest rate of 6.23%. So that says that with my strategy I could expect a drop of 0.77% in roi - all else being equal (which may not be the case).
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blender
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Post by blender on Nov 2, 2016 20:48:00 GMT
Slightly embarrassingly I put in the old rate calculation. Using the new rates I get an average interest rate of 6.23%. So that says that with my strategy I could expect a drop of 0.77% in roi - all else being equal (which may not be the case). Thanks driain. You have provided a valuable worked example to set against FC's statement. Going forward they will be reducing rates significantly - it would be a 11% reduction with your example.
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acky
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Post by acky on Nov 3, 2016 13:22:53 GMT
Masses of C and D parts on the SM at par. Presumably Bot-Daddies (or Bot-Mummies) clearing the decks in advance of the new improved rates available next week! Edit: but as all the Filters have packed up on the Loan Parts page, it would be pretty difficult to buy any even if I wanted to!
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Nov 3, 2016 14:07:00 GMT
It is interesting how much FC are steepening the curve with these. samford71 makes some good points about coming inflation in the inflation thread elsewhere on this forum. I guess that Trump/Brexit (etc) uncertainty might steepen the curve from a credit point of view as well as inflation. Does anyone have any thoughts about how much greater impact a sharp downturn might have on D and E loans vs A+ and A loans compared to expected default rates?
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metoo
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Post by metoo on Nov 3, 2016 14:20:26 GMT
Does anyone have any thoughts about how much greater impact a sharp downturn might have on D and E loans vs A+ and A loans compared to expected default rates? Here is a link to the FC blog article from September on stress testing they commissioned. It says: I would suggest reading the whole blog article for context. The latest blog on the new rates has also been updated to add some comments on loss coverage for higher risk bands. It says: Their comment on loss coverage being 4.0x must be some kind of average, given the estimated annual bad debt rates on the statistics page. marc77 gave some notes from the recent Investor Evening which touched on defaults in a recession. I don't think FC has published a video of this summer's Investor Evening. Has anybody seen one?
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