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Post by davee39 on May 8, 2014 7:40:27 GMT
At least read the Q & A's, bid manually and prune any Autobid dogs. I am a free rider - I let others do the DD and ask the questions. My business knowledge is limited to checking the Credit Score and a minor look at the numbers. I have followed some of the advice on here & do not fall in love with any loan, they will alll go after a few months (barring unforseen CCJ's).
I do take issue with comments such as 'earning less than the minimum wage' due to time taken. My 'savings' are in Zopa and RS. Time spent on FC is a hobby, for the pleasure of reading the pitches and trying to beat the system for an extra few pence profit. (And in my case I do mean pence, having never put more than £100 in any loan, and that was the first property, all sold at a small margin and cashback harvested.
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Post by bracknellboy on May 8, 2014 7:46:51 GMT
Response to Blender and Jimbo: Interesting. I'm currently at about 312 loans which are not downgraded, 340 total excluding repaids. That is at the highest its ever been, and my total sum invested is not far of its peak, though back on the decline again. Current max exposure to one business ~ 3.2% though it has been @ 4.5% max. Can't remember when I started, but its about 30 months ago. blender: I fit your bill of 'little time, and paying tax at stonking rate = is it worth it/can you make it pay". My Gross/annualised/fully is 10.3%, 7.3%, 6.8%. The gap between the latter two has closed quite a bit recently (the annualised dropped). Never worked out my actual XIRR etc. taking into account dead time. Have not been a***d, frankly: too much shifting money in and out. However since end of 2012, after a series of 'hits' I started process of trying to get a good estimate of returns taking the tax treatment into account. I'm more interested in current/future prediction than historic performance over total period. So a bit different to others: I use the current weighted rate of my loan book, assume that my ratio of losses to earnings to date is a reasonable predictor of future performance; and some conservative (I hope) assumptions on recoveries on my current bad loans (assessed on an individual basis). And I use a starting baseline of Dec 12 when I started to get serious about tracking REAL as opposed to mythical returns. On that basis, I reckon my current run rate is a return which would be equivalent to a touch over 6% pre-tax (i.e. as if I was being paid 6% which is then subject to tax). That's dropped a bit recently thanks to small bout of hits (primarily lates/downgrades with promises of guarantors continuing to pay but am assuming that won't last). That is a dramatic improvement from where I was Dec 12, where i was in the sub-2% level (having taken tax treatment into account). However, all in all: should have invested in some BTL rather than p2p............Less time consuming/higher returns.....plus capital growth..which is what I really should be looking for.
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merlin
Minor shareholder in Assetz and many other companies.
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Post by merlin on May 8, 2014 9:04:17 GMT
Should I stay or go is very much a personal question. IMO for really serious investment I don't think FC is the place to put your money. As many have said before to get the most out of FC you have to invest quite a bit of time and realistically time is money. If on the other hand there is a touch of the gambler about you and you like playing financial games then FC could be a good choice.
Personally at one time about a year ago I had a five figure sum invested in around 200 businesses. However I then hit a bad patch with around 10 businesses falling on their swords. It also coincided with auction rates achievable on FC falling to a level where I was not prepared to go. I then started to prune my holdings hard and moved some of my investment to Assetz which in my view offered more security. Then in late February rates on FC started to improve and during March rebuilt some of my holding to the point today where I have invested in 150 businesses (mostly A, B, C loans) and according to the FC summary I am getting 13.2% gross and 9.1% net before tax. For the last month I have not bought a thing as prices have fallen back again to a level where I am not prepared to go. It takes me about 10 minutes per day to manage my FC investments and I enjoy the experience most of the time. However the only advice I would give is don't let you heart rule your head.
My main investments are elsewhere, property, stock market, etc.
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davidg
New Member
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Post by davidg on May 8, 2014 16:56:59 GMT
Thank you very much to all the above posters. Some interesting food for thought, clearly expressed. I'm glad I asked, (which is not always the case on forums!).
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is
Posts: 108
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Post by is on May 22, 2014 14:05:58 GMT
Surprised to see the returns mentioned here. After about a year, mine are
GY: 12.9% AR: 15.5% (yes above GY) ER: 8.4% (FS gets this badly wrong because it assumes passive hold strategy)
This has been climbing up progressively since the start, with a slight dip as top auction rates tightened last couple of months.
Current pf: 185 businesses / 1595 parts
15.5% is pretty good for investment without leverage in my book.
I agree that passive / autobid would be a lot lower (and should be in line with FS quoted 6-something % AR), so it's just a question of time vs. money. But I find this quite fun!
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blender
Member of DD Central
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Post by blender on May 22, 2014 23:00:49 GMT
Surprised to see the returns mentioned here. After about a year, mine are GY: 12.9% AR: 15.5% (yes above GY) ER: 8.4% (FS gets this badly wrong because it assumes passive hold strategy) This has been climbing up progressively since the start, with a slight dip as top auction rates tightened last couple of months. Current pf: 185 businesses / 1595 parts 15.5% is pretty good for investment without leverage in my book. I agree that passive / autobid would be a lot lower (and should be in line with FS quoted 6-something % AR), so it's just a question of time vs. money. But I find this quite fun! Davidg's 2.2% does seem particularly unfortunate, but he did say that he has no time to spend and uses Autobid. If someone such as 'is' works at it and gets, say, double the average AR on £30k+, then a few average size lenders would have to get zero return to balance it. If everyone worked hard at it and got double the current average AR then FC would have to provide as much cash as the Borrowers. Congratulations on 15.5%, but it is at the expense of the necessary autobidders.
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fasty
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Post by fasty on May 22, 2014 23:09:14 GMT
I would imagine that 15.5% AR would only be achievable not only by careful bidding, but also by fairly intense activity on the secondary market (flipping)?
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on May 23, 2014 7:31:41 GMT
Flipping the whole portfolio, I would think. And as Blender says, for everyone getting this kind of return there will be several lenders getting less. Why is why FC is no place for passive/autobid investors.
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blender
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Post by blender on May 23, 2014 9:37:10 GMT
Flipping the whole portfolio, I would think. And as Blender says, for everyone getting this kind of return there will be several lenders getting less. Why is why FC is no place for passive/autobid investors. The other issue is liquidity and speed of exit. Six months ago I counted an extra notional £1000 in my FC Total as the total from premiums from an exit over say a month, all loan parts being above current MBR. By February that number was negative. I would not wish to be selling now an average Autobid portfolio built up through 2013. The Autobidder loses not only on the below average rate but also on the cost and speed of exit. So if wanting a P2P account and wishing to spend no time on it, in principle it is best to look first for an operator where the returns are the same for all, where losses are shared equally and where the exit arrangements are defined or predictable. FC would probably claim to be a more successful operator than others and that they provide competitive rates and exit arrangements for their Autobidders - that may be correct but past performance etc,etc ... . Personally I have the time, can afford the risk, find FC entertaining and love to fiddle to optimise things - provided I am not screwing fellow lenders.
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is
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Post by is on May 23, 2014 10:00:46 GMT
What enhances returns is the cyclical nature of FC supply/demand. Acting like market maker here (or as an underwriter on Assetz) smooths it out for passive participants, who pay a certain premium for the service. The market maker in turn pays in time spent on active management / dead periods when bids do not earn interest. The 0.25 selling fee means you lose just under a week and a half of carry for every sale (in terms of return on the liquid "cash parking" instruments, the C- par loan parts)
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blender
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Post by blender on May 23, 2014 10:50:47 GMT
What enhances returns is the cyclical nature of FC supply/demand. Acting like market maker here (or as an underwriter on Assetz) smooths it out for passive participants, who pay a certain premium for the service. The market maker in turn pays in time spent on active management / dead periods when bids do not earn interest. The 0.25 selling fee means you lose just under a week and a half of carry for every sale (in terms of return on the liquid "cash parking" instruments, the C- par loan parts) Yes, flipper or market maker - it is a matter of your perspective. I was not wishing my 'screwing other lenders' comment to apply to anyone other than myself - a statement that I had to be happy that my practice was defensible. I used to be anti-flipper but this was changed as my perception of FC changed last year and I moved to a shorter hold policy on the C- loans, a halfway house. It seems that FC not only needs this informal market-making facility to cover structural problems (on larger loans for example) but also seems to be using it deliberately to launch the property loans (autobid is blind to cashback offers). And the cyclical nature of FC supply/demand which you mention is not a function of general market conditions (which could hardly be more stable), but imo a consequence of defects or pathologies within FC's management of its business growth. So do what you need to do within the rules to maximise return - because that is what FC's backers want from FC. As long as fellow lenders on this and other forums are given the facts and honest opinions.
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