steveb
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Post by steveb on May 13, 2020 14:18:42 GMT
On the “just received from Collateral” thread duck discussed this building. he said it has been transformed for a nearly completed development to a vandalised shell in the last two years. what is really known?Money destined for other sites was maybe diverted to this one. How much?? I may be able to partly help with this one.
I had money committed to 4 loans which on paper had not been drawndown, one of which was for this loan. On the new accounts I have, this money appears* to have been lent out, however the accounts do suggest it was lent to the borrower it was intended for.
* ( I say appears as the money is listed in the same column as other money which has been lent out).
Steve
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chris1200
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Post by chris1200 on May 13, 2020 14:42:32 GMT
Oh what fun and games... Literally days before Collateral went offline, I noticed a load of money become available in the (I thought) super safe original loan for this development - the first-ranking one. Its LTV is so low by now, I thought, how great to snap these up! Still hopeful they'll do okay, but more concerned about them these days than I was. Oh well, you live and learn.
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on May 14, 2020 10:44:18 GMT
If this sold for under 2 mill the first charge holders may get most of their capital back but no interest and the other charges would get nothing. I think it is worth a lot more than that even as a distressed sale. I have a lot riding on this one, fortunately in the first charge only
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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on May 14, 2020 11:41:58 GMT
If this sold for under 2 mill the first charge holders may get most of their capital back but no interest and the other charges would get nothing. I think it is worth a lot more than that even as a distressed sale. I have a lot riding on this one, fortunately in the first charge only I'm not completely convinced the different platform tiers will prove to have any standing.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on May 14, 2020 12:03:41 GMT
If this sold for under 2 mill the first charge holders may get most of their capital back but no interest and the other charges would get nothing. I think it is worth a lot more than that even as a distressed sale. I have a lot riding on this one, fortunately in the first charge only I'm not completely convinced the different platform tiers will prove to have any standing. As an investor in the first ranking bridging loan, I hope the stated order of charges is maintained. What makes you think otherwise?
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duck
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Post by duck on May 14, 2020 12:43:49 GMT
If this sold for under 2 mill the first charge holders may get most of their capital back but no interest and the other charges would get nothing. I think it is worth a lot more than that even as a distressed sale. I have a lot riding on this one, fortunately in the first charge only I'm not completely convinced the different platform tiers will prove to have any standing. I and I know others have provided BDO with documentary proof of how the tranche system was supposed to work. As far as I know BDO aim to apply it.
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iRobot
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Post by iRobot on May 14, 2020 12:47:58 GMT
I'm not completely convinced the different platform tiers will prove to have any standing. As an investor in the first ranking bridging loan, I hope the stated order of charges is maintained. What makes you think otherwise? I know the liquidators have received information such that in spite of fate / incompetence / nonfeasance / misfeasance / malfeasance / criminal intent* resulting in a severely incomplete set of records being available to them, they should** be able to piece together the order of tranche seniority, amongst other things. For example, detail from this email announcing T4 of BL00026 ** - some assumptions here: ie that it's permissible to accept information from external sources, although if it's repeated from several sources it would seem unjust not to accept it as bona fide. * - history will show which of these - or maybe something else - was the cause of the missing books, although if I were a betting man I know where my 50p would be placed. EDIT - crossed with duck who, as usual, is all over this
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chris1200
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Post by chris1200 on May 14, 2020 13:13:11 GMT
I'm not completely convinced the different platform tiers will prove to have any standing. I and I know others have provided BDO with documentary proof of how the tranche system was supposed to work. As far as I know BDO aim to apply it. I also remember enquiring about this way back when and was told by someone on the CC (Monetus, I guess?) that, as far as he was aware, BDO would be applying tranche priority order. Also, in their reports, BDO make explicit reference to "loans or tranches of loans" on several occasions, which I find encouraging. There would be little point in establishing tranche membership if you didn't intend to act on it. What I've never been sure of, though, is how this works with interest. I assume everyone's capital ranks before anyone's interest... but not sure what I'm basing this on...?!
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ceejay
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Post by ceejay on May 14, 2020 13:23:42 GMT
I and I know others have provided BDO with documentary proof of how the tranche system was supposed to work. As far as I know BDO aim to apply it. I also remember enquiring about this way back when and was told by someone on the CC (Monetus, I guess?) that, as far as he was aware, BDO would be applying tranche priority order. Also, in their reports, BDO make explicit reference to "loans or tranches of loans" on several occasions, which I find encouraging. There would be little point in establishing tranche membership if you didn't intend to act on it. What I've never been sure of, though, is how this works with interest. I assume everyone's capital ranks before anyone's interest... but not sure what I'm basing this on...?!I strongly suspect that any considerations of interest are entirely moot. Or, to put it another way, what interest? If we get most of our capital back then I think we'd all consider it to be a success.
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iRobot
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Post by iRobot on May 14, 2020 13:25:02 GMT
I and I know others have provided BDO with documentary proof of how the tranche system was supposed to work. As far as I know BDO aim to apply it. I also remember enquiring about this way back when and was told by someone on the CC (Monetus, I guess?) that, as far as he was aware, BDO would be applying tranche priority order. Also, in their reports, BDO make explicit reference to "loans or tranches of loans" on several occasions, which I find encouraging. There would be little point in establishing tranche membership if you didn't intend to act on it. What I've never been sure of, though, is how this works with interest. I assume everyone's capital ranks before anyone's interest... but not sure what I'm basing this on...?!Perhaps this post?
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iRobot
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Post by iRobot on May 14, 2020 13:32:54 GMT
I strongly suspect that any considerations of interest are entirely moot. Or, to put it another way, what interest? If we get most of our capital back then I think we'd all consider it to be a success. Agreed re: interest. (And to be honest, my expectations are now in the realms of 'some / 'any' capital, rather than 'most'.) What I would like to know - and I think it's been asked before - is whether the meetings between BDO and CC are minuted and whether those minutes can / will, in the fullness of time, be made available. Not so much because I'm concerned by the actions of the CC - their capacity for influence is minimal - but because I'd like to know what information was disseminated by BDO to establish a timeline of events and activities.
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chris1200
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Post by chris1200 on May 14, 2020 13:38:27 GMT
I also remember enquiring about this way back when and was told by someone on the CC (Monetus, I guess?) that, as far as he was aware, BDO would be applying tranche priority order. Also, in their reports, BDO make explicit reference to "loans or tranches of loans" on several occasions, which I find encouraging. There would be little point in establishing tranche membership if you didn't intend to act on it. What I've never been sure of, though, is how this works with interest. I assume everyone's capital ranks before anyone's interest... but not sure what I'm basing this on...?!I strongly suspect that any considerations of interest are entirely moot. Or, to put it another way, what interest? If we get most of our capital back then I think we'd all consider it to be a success. Well, they're only moot because of the priority order iRobot has just set out (as I had recollected). Otherwise, for first-ranking tranche holders, it wouldn't be entirely moot at all! Besides, in the cases where recoveries go very well (already several loans have recovered more than the outstanding capital), any additional interest will go someway to offsetting capital losses elsewhere, as well as BDO's fees. I'm less concerned about labelling 'successes' or otherwise - just maximising what I can recover overall.
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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on May 14, 2020 13:43:31 GMT
As an investor in the first ranking bridging loan, I hope the stated order of charges is maintained. What makes you think otherwise? I know the liquidators have received information such that in spite of fate / incompetence / nonfeasance / misfeasance / malfeasance / criminal intent* resulting in a severely incomplete set of records being available to them, they should** be able to piece together the order of tranche seniority, amongst other things. For example, detail from this email announcing T4 of BL00026 ** - some assumptions here: ie that it's permissible to accept information from external sources, although if it's repeated from several sources it would seem unjust not to accept it as bona fide. * - history will show which of these - or maybe something else - was the cause of the missing books, although if I were a betting man I know where my 50p would be placed. EDIT - crossed with duck who, as usual, is all over this I was vague deliberately, presumably nobody on this side of the fence knows how watertight the structuring was and the dynamics of lenders positions is very fluid. I recall in the early days, people mainly invested in for want of a better term 'bling' were adamant that, that had to be treated as theirs and theirs alone with no overall pooling. That feeling may have evaporated with the value of said bling. I suspect this particular thriller/horror novel has many more twists and turns before the words The End appear, and my comment was based on that rather than a wish for any particular outcome. I tend not to dedicate much time to thinking about things I have no control over, but have yet to come up with any scenario that benefits me much whatever happens. A curious side effect of holding a 'balanced' selection of loans.
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duck
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Post by duck on May 14, 2020 14:40:40 GMT
Anybody who keeps an eye on the LR and other official channels will have seen movement on this property and an associated foreign company recently, which means 'stuff' is happening.
I stand by my recent statement that the development has changed 'from a nearly complete development into a vandalised shell' this is based on very good information, backed up by several sources. Insurance should be held by the developer but of course the development is out of his hands so I doubt very much if there is any. The question as to if BDO should have any insurance is perhaps more pertinent but since I am not on the CC I have no idea what the position is here.
[please don't shoot the messenger mode on] From what I know I cannot see any way that anybody will get any interest. I anticipate that BDO will apply the priorites - although that might not be the case, who knows what the legal eagles have found. If the priorities are applied then everybody outside BL00026 will be wiped out. I'm also anticipating BL00026 investors will be taking a haircut, how large I have no idea but it won't be in the 1-2% range. Never forget that BDO (and all their lawyers/agents) will be taking a fair chunk of any selling price (which I anticipate will be low) due to the damage and CV19 (agents looking for a low price prior to CV19). [/mode off]
Apologies if I have just spoiled you day with what I have just written, I can be a tad blunt at times but unfortunately this is how I see things currently.
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Post by Please turn me over on May 14, 2020 15:26:07 GMT
I'm still perplexed by BDO's statement: "Following the Creditors’ Committee’s approval at a meeting held on 12 March 2019, Receivers were appointed over the property on 14 March 2019." Firstly, as a simple statement, it doesn't mean that the CC's approval was required to appoint the Receivers, but why write in a way that implies it was? Secondly, concerns were raised with BDO about site security (theft, vandalism) as early as 24 September 2018 (by me) and probably earlier (by others). Had BDO acted more prudently and appointed Receivers then, the site could have been secured/protected to preserve value.
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