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Post by kerimar on Aug 22, 2017 11:10:02 GMT
You don't get to decide what to sell when you sell after the 18th. So the only way to be sure is to sell everything. People who have picked the max return will pick up those CDE while the conservative users will be insulated from that. Yes but as long as you are diversified you will most likely be getting an above average return. Then if you want to reduce the portfolio over time you can. I'm not sure what you mean by the only way to be sure. That's why I am trimming every loan down to the Minimum I feel safe keeping. Just browsing SM now snapping up any small newish parts I can. Come the 18th, it can just sit there for at least 6 months fairly risk free.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Aug 22, 2017 11:21:30 GMT
You don't get to decide what to sell when you sell after the 18th. So the only way to be sure is to sell everything. People who have picked the max return will pick up those CDE while the conservative users will be insulated from that. Then if you want to reduce the portfolio over time you can. I'm not sure what you mean by the only way to be sure. I don't think that is right. The more diversified you are, the closer you are to the average return. The less diversified, the higher the chance of being an outlier (above or below the average).
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Post by kerimar on Aug 22, 2017 11:24:04 GMT
But still a higher average sorting it out now as oppossed to waiting for Auto Bid giving me handfuls of A+ and A There sure wont be enough C D and E to go around.
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Post by nyquest on Aug 22, 2017 11:36:44 GMT
Half my portfolio was A+ property that I would sell 6 months before the end of the term to avoid the usual Tewkesbury type late payments/sob stories.
The other was D's & E's at 17% / 21% I would flip after 3 months......I've sold the lot £98k's worth yesterday. The lack of control is too much to take, maybe we've been spoiled but I agree we got FC off the ground as someone has already stated. All the fun has gone, its not rock n roll enough for me. Anyone any suggestions on where to go next?
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Aug 22, 2017 11:41:02 GMT
Your 'system' requires there to always be a buyer whether they like it or not .. basically 'pass the toxic parcel and hope someone else is holding it when it implodes'. It favours someone who actively manages their portfolio every week, day or ideally nanosecond, to comb out the toxic junk .. note the word 'favours', which implies 'unfair'. If you reckon you can beat the system by deciding what to sell when, then you are also implying the lucky recipients of what you sell are going to come out worse than if you didn't have that option. Saying 'yeah well they can do the same to someone else' doesn't actually address the issue, just kicks it down the road. I really don't understand this argument. If you follow it then all share trading should be banned. As should selling bonds and loans. And property or any asset really. Some people think something will go up in price / is a good credit risk. Others that it will go down / is a bad credit risk. This difference of opinion means you can trade the asset and both sides are happy. As others have pointed out, the difference is that on the stock market you have actively consenting buyers and sellers, who agree on a price. The way the FC SM is set up, non-consenting adults (using autobodge) can be sold almost literally anything, as long as it is at par or a discount. Right now it is just about possible to duck most of the junk by manually setting ridiculous required rates for autobid (thus stopping it buying on the SM), but under the new system you won't even have that option (which most grannies never found anyway) .. autobid will now buy anything it feels like (always at par) .. probably 'everything being sold'. So no, share trading should not be banned, but your ability to stuff my share portfolio with anything you no longer fancy, at a fixed price, whether I like it or not, should definitely continue to be banned.
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am
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Post by am on Aug 22, 2017 11:43:06 GMT
Main ones that I can see is that you don't have to pay stamp duty if you invest directly or buy in at the 3% premium FCIF is trading on. - FCIF is debt leveraged, amplifying returns (up and down).
FCIF is currently yielding a trifle under 6.5%. That doesn't look like debt-leveraged returns.
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Post by kerimar on Aug 22, 2017 11:47:02 GMT
Half my portfolio was A+ property that I would sell 6 months before the end of the term to avoid the usual Tewkesbury type late payments/sob stories. The other was D's & E's at 17% / 21% I would flip after 3 months......I've sold the lot £98k's worth yesterday. The lack of control is too much to take, maybe we've been spoiled but I agree we got FC off the ground as someone has already stated. All the fun has gone, its not rock n roll enough for me. Anyone any suggestions on where to go next? After I've sorted out what I'm keeping, the surplus I'm going to try small with Lendy, Capital Rise and LendInvest
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Post by dan1 on Aug 22, 2017 11:51:12 GMT
- FCIF is debt leveraged, amplifying returns (up and down).
FCIF is currently yielding a trifle under 6.5%. That doesn't look like debt-leveraged returns. Is that including the 0.88% ongoing charge? I assume FCIF pay the 1% interest fee as per retail investors so the ongoing charge is on top of this?
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bg
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Post by bg on Aug 22, 2017 12:00:30 GMT
Yes but as long as you are diversified you will most likely be getting an above average return. Then if you want to reduce the portfolio over time you can. I'm not sure what you mean by the only way to be sure. I don't think that is right. The more diversified you are, the closer you are to the average return. The less diversified, the higher the chance of being an outlier (above or below the average). It is right. Clearly the average return (after fees and defaults) of an A+ yielding 4.5% is < 3.5%. It's not possible for it to be higher than 3.5%. An E yielding 21.9% with an expected annual default rate of 8% has an expected return of 12.9%. Of course the volatility of such a portfolio will be significantly higher than a portfolio of A+ but if you are sufficiently well diversified you would expect a return of around 12.9%. That's why demand for E's is so high and demand for A+ is low. If you go into Sep 18th with a diversified portfolio or C/D/E loans then your expected return is above average. That is what a lot of people will do - then run the protfolio down over time.
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markr
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Post by markr on Aug 22, 2017 12:37:22 GMT
Just as a follow up, FC have responded to my support request saying that the Tech Team are working through everyone's accounts unravelling the double-selling errors, and mine appears to have been done (which it has). Probably a copy and paste reply, but well done to FC for responding quickly in what must suddenly be a very busy time for their support people!
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Aug 22, 2017 13:27:01 GMT
I don't think that is right. The more diversified you are, the closer you are to the average return. The less diversified, the higher the chance of being an outlier (above or below the average). It is right. Clearly the average return (after fees and defaults) of an A+ yielding 4.5% is < 3.5%. It's not possible for it to be higher than 3.5%. An E yielding 21.9% with an expected annual default rate of 8% has an expected return of 12.9%. Of course the volatility of such a portfolio will be significantly higher than a portfolio of A+ but if you are sufficiently well diversified you would expect a return of around 12.9%. That's why demand for E's is so high and demand for A+ is low. If you go into Sep 18th with a diversified portfolio or C/D/E loans then your expected return is above average. That is what a lot of people will do - then run the protfolio down over time. ah - different use of the term diversification. You mean diversified spread of risk, rather than diversification for a given risk.
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nrw
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Post by nrw on Aug 22, 2017 14:01:48 GMT
- FCIF is debt leveraged, amplifying returns (up and down).
FCIF is currently yielding a trifle under 6.5%. That doesn't look like debt-leveraged returns. FCIF pays 6.5% net of all fees as a dividend (ie. it's also net of corporation tax), so if you're comparing it to the average rate on FC (which is quoted gross, with no tax paid) then it's significantly higher (ie. FCIF's gross equivalent is >8%).
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nrw
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Post by nrw on Aug 22, 2017 14:05:11 GMT
So, in summary of 12 pages of chit chat - FC has made a bunch of changes to suit their business, the regulator and the majority of retail investors.
Unfortunately that change doesn't suit all investors - particularly the vocal minority on these forums (who are undoubtedly smarter / richer / more enthusiastic than the majority). There are winners and losers with most changes.
If you like it, stick / if you don't like it, leave? FC will be fine with that. I'm piling back in.
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Steerpike
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Post by Steerpike on Aug 22, 2017 14:21:17 GMT
Unsecured SME lending at a projected 7.5% with no PF at FC or secured lending at a target 7% with a PF at Assetz, at the moment I am choosing neither, however, I fail to see the attaction of usecured SME lending at these rates particularly with storm clouds gathering.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 15:38:30 GMT
I have been a FC Lender for nearly 2 years, investing almost exclusively in secured property loans with just a very small number of unsecured loans.
My maximum total investment earlier this year was just under £17K. I had the intention to build up to a maximum budget of £20K.
Apart from what at times appeared to be an excessive level of loans repaid or rescheduled late, my general FC experience was reasonably positive. I had averaged something around a 7.25% return on loans and only one bad debt. The bad debt was an unsecured loan to a small hotel which appeared to be profitable and with enough owner equity on the Balance Sheet to cover any loan default. In the event, one of the husband / wife team that ran the hotel suffered a stroke and they could not continue to run the business.
However, my FC experience has gone downhill over recent months.
The first issue was withdrawing from the secured property market. I have no wish to invest in unsecured loans so this decision meant that my time with FC would eventually come to an end.
That end was accelerated by the decision to close the forum. When FC Lenders put time and effort into posting to the Forum, it is very disrespectful of FC to close it suddenly. If the real reason was due to criticism of the withdrawal from the property loans, then what does that say about the management at FC? Not the kind of management that I would like to deal with.
That end was further accelerated by the debacle over the website changes. My loans could always be identified either by loan description, loan number, or part number. However, none of the various reports or searches available was based upon all three identifiers together so it was always a problem trying to reconcile between different sets of information. When looking at new loans for offer, I use to be able to toggle on the loan description column on my existing loans page to see exactly what else I might have been doing with a particular borrower. That functionality disappeared with the latest site changes. I asked FC if the previous toggle functionality on the loans description column functionality could be reinstated. This should have been an easy request. FC refused and said that instead I should download the newly available spreadsheets to find the information. I had tried to do that but due to the length of the description fields the manipulation of the spreadsheets was somewhat unwieldy and time consuming and not practical.
By now I had had enough of FC and stopped new lending and started to sell my loans. I told FC that I would do this.
Yesterday I logged on to FC only to find out about the changes to the site and the modus operandi.
I have no desire not to be able to select loans manually. Even if I were happy to invest substantively in unsecured loans, some of the FC loans look high risk when profits history and net Balance Sheet worth of some of the borrowers are taken into account against the values of loans. I would not wish to be invested in them.
The reasons given by FC for the changes feel like vanilla corporate PR speak without any real meaning for me.
I run my own business so am acutely aware that customer relationship management is one of the most important aspects of running a business. I dislike the FC attitude of deciding for me what is best for me and ignoring valid customer requests. I know from experience that sometimes small customers become big customers and that sometimes big customers become small customers or disappear altogether. So I dislike the FC attitude of treating small customers as if they do not count for anything.
Yesterday’s announcements were the last straw. Yesterday was the day to call time on FC. I sold all my remaining loans that I could. Most of the proceeds were in my bank account first thing this morning and will be reinvested elsewhere. The rates that FC offer for secured loans are about market average with a number of other platforms offering better rates. So I thank FC for giving me the incentive to speed up the rate at which I achieve better earnings elsewhere. I have some remaining FC loans which cannot be sold because they are either late or about to be repaid imminently so unfortunately am likely still to have to continue to have to deal with FC until the end of 2017.
I am making this posting because although in the eyes of FC a small person like me might be a nobody, in the real world I am a somebody with the same ability to decide for myself as anybody else. And I would like FC lenders to remember that in the real world people who are upset with FC can do the same as me and vote with their feet and leave FC and find good investment opportunities elsewhere.
Thank you.
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