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Post by Invest&Fund on Oct 19, 2017 10:56:18 GMT
RM, thanks very much, those links very handy. It's a good discussion - I might trawl through the points too and pull something together on lender view vs platforms. Always good to hear the real thoughts of lenders, thanks for your response. Matthew.
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yangmills
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Post by yangmills on Oct 20, 2017 23:18:42 GMT
Excellent points yangmills . I'm curious to know your opinion on diversification and how it aligns with doing extensive DD on borrowers. Are they mutually exclusive strategies in your mind. Do you ignore DD and rely on diversification or do you perform extensive DD on a more focused portfolio of investments and try to beat average returns. I'm also curious to know an example of a loan that you believe represents a good risk/reward ratio (understanding it is not a recommendation). My starting point would be to say that I'm not a professional in private lending. My background is macro investing, mainly in EM FI/FX. I would posit that I have no competitive edge in P2P, so perhaps I shouldn't try to 'add alpha' by active investing (say via "loan picking"). I should take a passive approach; building a diversified portfolio of loans to capture the beta of the P2P market. In many ways this is analogous to my equity investing; I generally buy index trackers rather than engage in "stock picking". This still argues for setting concentrations limits to enforce diversification levels across a number of factors (say sector, platform and a single borrower limit). Given the above statement, I then break those rules! Partially that's a tendency to tinker but there are some rational justifications. First, the benefits of diversification aren't just a function of the number of loans. It's a function of the correlation between those loans. It's not at all clear to me at this stage what the correlation structure of P2P will look like, especially in a stress scenario. Second, on some platforms the quality of loans is rather variable. I don't think sectors such as high-yield development lending can be easily scaled. To increase origination volumes, without dropping yields, the platform will have to present increasingly high risk propositions. Taking exposure to all these loans would suppress returns. So my concern is that by over-diversifying I could end up accumulating poor quality or highly correlated loans ("diworsification"). The third reason I don't want to be 100% passive is that is that the P2P market hasn't been at all efficient. Loans are often priced to liquidity rather than credit risk. Some P2P sectors seem more attractive than others, favouring tilting toward better value sectors. Investors clearly have different aims and objectives, creating distortions and opportunities that can be exploited. This all argues for active investing. So my actual approach has been to diversify across investment strategies where possible. I feel this is actually more effective that just diversifying across more loans. Examples might be: a) Buy-and-hold approach. Uses "loan picking" (i.e. your DD), mainly on platforms that provide the most borrower information (AC, TC say). This strategy tends to deliver a more concentrated portfolio (as I'm rejecting 80% of loans). b) Underwriting. The aim here is simply to rotate capital to collect fees, while hopefully maintaining liquidity. DD to make sure loan is decent and will be popular with investors. AC and TC have been used for this. c) Trading: Some platforms like FC and SS were suited to an automated algo/rules-based trading strategy (zero DD). On FC it was buy in primary, strip cashback, sell for small cap gain. On SS it was buy in primary, stripping interest for six months and then sell three months to redemption. d) Passive: Where I don't see any way to generate an edge I go passive. A good example was LendInvest. Given the paucity of the loan info provided, the nature of their product (mostly property in SE England) and the lack of an SM, it became clear that picking loans was futile. Far better just to invest in their SICAV fund but with a higher return and some liquidity. FCIF and the new form of FC are good examples of this option if you like it. To be fair though the above is getting harder as opportunities close, and I'm tending back to option (d) passive diversification. In terms of something I'd be willing to hold, I'm not sure whether you are on TC, so I'll go for PBL92 (now DFL12?) on SS. The basic proposition seems sound (vulnerable to collapse in the student flat bubble but that's inherent in the project). Location decent. The developer has achieved pre-sales (this means it's not a first charge but I prefer to see sales/pre-lets on development projects). It could still default but the risk is less here and the downside recovery scenarios would probably on result in either no loss or a modest haircut. Biggest reason not to hold more of the loan: the platform it's on!
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Oct 20, 2017 23:50:30 GMT
Question - how many main street finance operations will offer to refinance out a development project at 70% GDV?
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littleoldlady
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Post by littleoldlady on Oct 21, 2017 7:39:47 GMT
Question - how many main street finance operations will offer to refinance out a development project at 70% GDV? I suppose if there were any there would be no p2p.
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yangmills
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Post by yangmills on Oct 21, 2017 10:11:59 GMT
Question - how many main street finance operations will offer to refinance out a development project at 70% GDV? De Montfort University does a commercial property lending survey. In the last report I got (2016), they surveyed around 80 lenders, including all the 45 banks (this includes all the high street banks, some US investment banks and German Landesbanks), 15 insurers and 20 "non bank lenders" (mainly funds). Of those 80 lenders, only about 5-7 were involved in "speculative" development lending (i.e less than 50% pre-let). The number of lenders willing to do developments had halved over the last few years. Those that were still involved had dropped acceptable LTV ratios to average of 55% for senior (capped at say 60-65%) and 70% for junior tranches. Loan sizes are more in the £25-50mm range than the £1-5mm we see on P2P loans. According to that survey, total development lending is only about £20bn/annum. The speculative part is <20% of that number. So I infer P2P development lending is small loans (perhaps not worth the time for larger lenders), in the riskiest part of the development spectrum, which itself is a niche where most mainstream lenders have no interest.
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Post by df on Oct 21, 2017 16:47:11 GMT
Question - how many main street finance operations will offer to refinance out a development project at 70% GDV? Probably none Hey man, can you borough me 700k, there is a field with barn on it going cheap, I'll knock it down and build a castle, when I'm done with me plan it will be worth 1m, thrust me man I have 15 years experience and stuff... when the bank says no they turn to Ly. I think GDV should be banned from headline figures. It can easily mislead. LTV should be tightened too - not what the security may be worth, but what you can realistically sell it for.
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Post by dan1 on Oct 24, 2017 19:29:48 GMT
As the saying goes, there are two sides to every story... The following article provides a surveyors perspective of property development lending: Peer to Peer Lending - Implications for Surveyors Involved In The SectorInteresting reading but please be aware that it was published some three years ago. I'll leave others more knowledgeable than myself to provide a detailed commentary but note the section on Tort Liabilities (my bold): In terms of potential liability to the lender(s) the cases do seem to demonstrate that the courts are taking a consistent view when considering the significance of the intended purpose of the report and the scope to which various recipients can be said to rely, or otherwise, on that report. This would tend to lead to a preliminary conclusion that the surveyor who produces a valuation report is likely to be liable to the peer-to peer lending platform and to the individual investors in relation to the consequences of the initial decision to lend, since it seems most likely that a court would find this reflected the purpose of the valuation report.There is also discussion of the potential liability of surveyors not only to those who purchased on the primary market but to those who purchased after-market, applicable to lenders relying on the initial valuation and subsequent IMS reports. The article reads very much as a warning to surveyors to, for example, ensure the wording of their agreements restricts their liability.
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on Oct 24, 2017 20:19:32 GMT
One or more Surveyors are surely going to swing in the not too distant future?
Too many people are about to lose too much money when they made informed decisions based on formal information which contained downright lies.
Lies, in fact, which were often unmasked by using basic schoolboy techniques.
A further "in fact", does such a scenario count as fraud?
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Oct 25, 2017 9:00:35 GMT
One or more Surveyors are surely going to swing in the not too distant future? Too many people are about to lose too much money when they made informed decisions based on formal information which contained downright lies. Lies, in fact, which were often unmasked by using basic schoolboy techniques. A further "in fact", does such a scenario count as fraud? Possibly Surveyors may be hung out to dry but the lenders are not the client of the surveyors. The platforms are where the contract lies between the two. Whether a surveyors report could be judged to be an inducement to invest is another matter and would require someone more legally astute than myself in this area. Where IMO the action will be is when a platform is taken to task legally through a lack of duty of care - negligence being extremely difficult if not impossible to prove. Obviously the platform will automatically invoke their T's & C's but whether these would be robust enough in the eyes of the law is highly debatable. If the platform are deemed to be acting as an agent on behalf of the borrower then many P2P platforms may find themselves in difficulty. Interesting times especially as you can only keep kicking the can down the road for so long. Many loans that should have been defaulted many full moons ago are finally falling into the 'chickens coming home to roost' camp at long last.
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littleoldlady
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Post by littleoldlady on Oct 25, 2017 16:34:50 GMT
One or more Surveyors are surely going to swing in the not too distant future? Possibly Surveyors may be hung out to dry but the lenders are not the client of the surveyors. The platforms are where the contract lies between the two. . I fear it may be even worse than that. I think that in many cases the QS's client is the borrower not the platform.
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on Oct 25, 2017 16:36:54 GMT
Very astute littleoldlady.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Oct 25, 2017 17:22:16 GMT
Yes, we've seen that many times. And it's really not on.
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on Oct 25, 2017 17:31:19 GMT
Meanwhile, Investors still appear to be bending over and taking it ever so politely? Whilst also handing back the vaseline if the going gets, errr, rough.
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Post by dan1 on Dec 16, 2017 22:58:34 GMT
Perhaps not the best thread to post this into but I came across this from Bridging & Commercial (www.bridgingandcommercial.co.uk).... www.lenderindex.co.ukFeatures COL, FC, Kuflink, LI, Lendy, Octopus among several others
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Dec 17, 2017 17:46:59 GMT
Cute, but why the heck to the have to invoke flash player to show us a set of text pages .. some web designer has obviously let their form run ahead of their function ..
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