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Post by valueinvestor123 on Sept 1, 2017 13:50:06 GMT
Following a question from another thread, I wanted to ask for advice what would be a good way to set up a portfolio in a tax efficient way for a 67 year old retired male. The income generated (a large proportion coming from peer2peer) will look as follows:
40k pa income from BTL 40k pa income from interest (peer2peer) 50k pa income from dividends 15k pa from pension
The person is only likely to draw around 40-60k per year and I was wondering if there is any way to 'roll-over' the unused income to grow the pot quicker. Any ideas? (no partner, ISAs are being opened each year and owns his own home).
Thanks, vi123
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Sept 1, 2017 15:59:44 GMT
There's always a SIPP, which kicks the problem/tax down the road, by which time there may be more sheltered in ISAs (getting that p2p interest into an isa would be useful) .. assuming you/they can meet the SIPP requirements.
The other option is to stop making so much income, if you don't need it, and look for growth instead.
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Post by valueinvestor123 on Sept 1, 2017 16:20:05 GMT
There's always a SIPP, which kicks the problem/tax down the road, by which time there may be more sheltered in ISAs (getting that p2p interest into an isa would be useful) .. assuming you/they can meet the SIPP requirements. The other option is to stop making so much income, if you don't need it, and look for growth instead. Yes, SIPP is the obvious choice. As for income, I don't really know how to invest for growth. i have only ever invested for income and growth always came as an added benefit.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2017 16:54:06 GMT
SIPP investment opportunity for zero unearned income is doodly squat or about £3600. If you can make any of your unearned income into earned that would help you up your SIPP.
Invest for growth... start with Trustnet and start looking at OIECS.
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jlend
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Post by jlend on Sept 1, 2017 19:13:45 GMT
As others have said. It looks income tax heavy from this limited information.
Make use of the annual cgt tax free allowance if possible.
Also cgt tax is less than income tax for now at least so perhaps look to shift some of the assets to those that may generate a capital gain rather than dividend paying.
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Post by valueinvestor123 on Sept 1, 2017 19:25:50 GMT
SIPP investment opportunity for zero unearned income is doodly squat or about £3600. If you can make any of your unearned income into earned that would help you up your SIPP. Invest for growth... start with Trustnet and start looking at OIECS. Oh, so you can't put away investment income into a SIPP? Can 'earned income' only come from employment/self-employment? I haven't thought of that but it makes sense. The trouble for me is that investment trusts that invest for growth often don't perform as well as the dividend-paying companies (from my experience. At least I have always found it much easier to spot value in dividend-paying blue chips).
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yangmills
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Post by yangmills on Sept 2, 2017 7:51:12 GMT
I'd have to make some assumption here but if he's generating 50k in dividends this might imply at least a £1.25mm equity portfolio (say 4% dividend if in UK equities, possibly double that if in US equities). With £40k of P2P income at say 8% (net of defaults) that is another £0.5mm. I'd clearly agree about maxing out ISAs and SIPPs where possible. Assuming that had be done, however, I'd then consider a life insurance bond. You can't have single stocks or loans in a life bond but you can have funds. So he could focus on HYP type equity funds or ITs and replace some of the the P2P loans with the likes of FCIF, P2PGI or even things like renewable energy funds (BSIF etc). This assumes he's very focused on income; I'd say that a more balanced focus on growth + income would be more sensible.
So lets say he puts £1.5mm of that £1.75mm in the life bond. We'll assume returns are 3%+CPI on the portfolio and that he withdraws £60k/year (CPI-linked) from the bond. So by year 20 (when he is 87), he has withdrawn £1.487mm from the bond. This is under the initial £1.5mm notional and he would never break the cumulative 5%/annum allowance of the bond (i.e £75k). So these withdrawals are all tax free.
The residual left in the bond at that point is £1.598mm (£1.075mm in real terms). The problem with life bonds is that all gains are treated as income, which is not tax-efficient when the marginal rate is 45% (vs. CGT at 20%). However, at this point he can use top-slicing relief. If he extracts £89k in year 20 (£60k in real terms), he will be taxed at his marginal rate on £4.5k/annum (89/20) of income (x 20 years). This should allow him to stay in the 20% tax band.
We're using something similar. I'm early 40s and intend to retire at 50 (at the latest). We're maxed out on ISAs and under fixed-protection on SIPPs, so a life bond was the next best option. At 50 say, once retired we'll start drawing £150k/annum from the bond (under the 5% allowance so tax free) to pay for living costs and school fees. At 70 we can draw the SIPPs and still sell down life bond units via top-slicing relief (or if we emigrate and just take it all tax free). The children are named in the life bond so we can transfer excess units to them to to avoid IHT.
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Post by valueinvestor123 on Sept 2, 2017 9:40:24 GMT
40k pa income from BTL 40k pa income from interest (peer2peer) 50k pa income from dividends 15k pa from pension Is this real or your "forecast" of his income ? How wealthy is this chap ? What's the rough size of the pots generating those figures ? Not wishing to be rude, but given those figures your post about wishing to "roll-over quicker", and all in relation to a 67 year old retiree something just does not pass the smell test for me I would have concerns about both the level of agression already in place to generate those figures (if the pots are relatively small) and also the fact that you're looking to "play with fire" and dial in more agression on a retiree's portfolio, and perhaps a degree of realism over potential capital losses needs to take place. "Just sayin'" as the cool kids say ! Be careful out there. Thanks for the words of caution. He was relatively wealthy (1m+ net worth) already and then his mother passed away and he became quite a bit more wealthy (3m+ net worth). Wealth is relative of course. I have been helping him with his and his mother's wealth (generating about 15% for the last 8 years but markets have been relatively kind) as I also run our family's portfolio. I continue to help him at his request but now realise that a huge chunk of the income will be eaten by tax so might have to rethink what to invest in and perhaps research some Investment Trusts that rollover the dividends inside the trust without paying them out. It's just that I have always had more success with dividend reinvestment/compounding to achieve higher than average returns in the past but I guess Berkshire doesn't pay dividends either. Will have to find something UK equivalent. But yes, you are right, he doesn't need more. It's more a question of how to maintain it maybe and provide an income. He does want to have as much disposable income as he can get that's why i am not sure whether to continue going the income-generating route or change to growth to avoid/delay paying high income taxes and utilise some capital gains.
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Post by valueinvestor123 on Sept 2, 2017 9:48:38 GMT
I'd have to make some assumption here but if he's generating 50k in dividends this might imply at least a £1.25mm equity portfolio (say 4% dividend if in UK equities, possibly double that if in US equities). With £40k of P2P income at say 8% (net of defaults) that is another £0.5mm. I'd clearly agree about maxing out ISAs and SIPPs where possible. Assuming that had be done, however, I'd then consider a life insurance bond. You can't have single stocks or loans in a life bond but you can have funds. So he could focus on HYP type equity funds or ITs and replace some of the the P2P loans with the likes of FCIF, P2PGI or even things like renewable energy funds (BSIF etc). This assumes he's very focused on income; I'd say that a more balanced focus on growth + income would be more sensible. So lets say he puts £1.5mm of that £1.75mm in the life bond. We'll assume returns are 3%+CPI on the portfolio and that he withdraws £60k/year (CPI-linked) from the bond. So by year 20 (when he is 87), he has withdrawn £1.487mm from the bond. This is under the initial £1.5mm notional and he would never break the cumulative 5%/annum allowance of the bond (i.e £75k). So these withdrawals are all tax free. The residual left in the bond at that point is £1.598mm (£1.075mm in real terms). The problem with life bonds is that all gains are treated as income, which is not tax-efficient when the marginal rate is 45% (vs. CGT at 20%). However, at this point he can use top-slicing relief. If he extracts £89k in year 20 (£60k in real terms), he will be taxed at his marginal rate on £4.5k/annum (89/20) of income (x 20 years). This should allow him to stay in the 20% tax band. We're using something similar. I'm early 40s and intend to retire at 50 (at the latest). We're maxed out on ISAs and under fixed-protection on SIPPs, so a life bond was the next best option. At 50 say, once retired we'll start drawing £150k/annum from the bond (under the 5% allowance so tax free) to pay for living costs and school fees. At 70 we can draw the SIPPs and still sell down life bond units via top-slicing relief (or if we emigrate and just take it all tax free). The children are named in the life bond so we can transfer excess units to them to to avoid IHT. Interesting. I have always avoided insurance products like the plague (high charges and had bad experiences with them myself). I don't know much about tax reliefs on these products. Will read up on it. What happens if the returns are quite a bit below the assumption? (3%+CPI) I would have thought the charges will be in the region of 3-4% (including fund management TERs), negating most of the return that can be had from dividends (4-5%). Maybe there will come a crash soon and dividends will be slashed by 50% and peer2peer phenomena will implode. Problem solved! :-) (I hope not).
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yangmills
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Post by yangmills on Sept 2, 2017 11:10:20 GMT
valueinvestor123 . If you attempt to do this on small sums (say a few hundred k) then yes the charges may well be 100-200bp. However, if you scale it up to say £1m+ then you can usually get a far better deal. I pay 15bp/annum to the insurance company, 15bp/annum to the private bank/IFA and 5bp to the custodian. So 35bp running on the wrapper's NAV. This is still a ridiculous charge for a wrapper but to avoid personal portfolio bond tax charges you need to create that separation and this requires 3 players who all want a cut. On the positive side this charge is comparable to a platform charge on say HL or Youinvest. Obviously fund charges are added to all this. For me, once I took fixed protection on my pension to protect the LTA at £1.8mm (my pension wasn't worth £1.8mm but I was in my late 30s in 2012 so it was very likely I would breach that number well before drawdown), I was then left with a lack of "gross roll-up" wrappers. ISAs don't really make a dent. The choices were trusts, life bonds or FIC (family investment company). All have pros and cons but my view is to expect them (plus pensions, ISAs and primary residence property) to get clobbered by wealth taxation at some point. We tax wealth/capital so lightly versus income in this country and demographics won't support that. So my solution is to diversify across products and not put too much in any specific type of structure. I'd also say that letting the tax tail wag the investment dog is never a good idea. I find that it's better to simply make more money (i.e work harder or take more/better risks with investments) than try to avoid tax. I prefer to be taxed at 47% on something, than 0% on a loss!
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theta
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Post by theta on Mar 21, 2019 10:13:55 GMT
I pay 15bp/annum to the insurance company, 15bp/annum to the private bank/IFA and 5bp to the custodian. So 35bp running on the wrapper's NAV. This is still a ridiculous charge for a wrapper but to avoid personal portfolio bond tax charges you need to create that separation and this requires 3 players who all want a cut. On the positive side this charge is comparable to a platform charge on say HL or Youinvest. Obviously fund charges are added to all this. Old post, but just came across it by accident so resurrecting the thread. At first glance 35bp per annum sounds small, but this is a charge on the capital sum. Given that a global diversified portfolio would yield around 2.5%, this is equivalent to approx 14% dividend tax upfront, instead of 38.1%. However, the remaining amount plus the entire growth will be taxed on exit at income tax rates, as opposed to 20% CGT. Say for example you invest £1m, and 20 years later you have withdrawn the capital leaving the growth. Say that growth is £1m in capital appreciation plus £1m in rolled up dividends. You have paid a bit over £100k in costs (avg account size * 35bp * 20 years). You can take out the sum paying income tax rates (at best 40%), so you'll have made £1.1m in total. If you had the capital in a personal capacity, you would have paid 38.1% div tax all those years, say £380k (calculating it on the average div amount so it accounts for the loss of compounding), and then another £200k CGT at the end, and you will have more than £1.6m total net gains, a 500k improvement. FAQ: 1. But for the first 20 years I pay no tax while I withdraw 5% of my capital every year. Answer: there's no charge for consuming capital any way so you wouldn't be paying tax if you consumed that outside the bond, and you would even have more flexibility 2. 35bp is comparable to many fund platforms' fees. Answer: you can easily avoid these in a personal capacity. Open an account with Interactive Brokers and trade the cheapest ETFs for almost free. Bonus answer: you can claim a credit for foreign tax withheld in dividends paid to you. For US funds that's 15%, which means your actual dividend tax liability will be reduced to 38.1% - 15% = 23.1%. You can't reclaim these within the bond, so you'll be further behind than what I wrote above. Counter-counter argument: I can see a case where this structure may work reasonably well. If the investments held in it are high yielding ones that would be taxed at income rates anyway, such as P2P lending. In that case the benefit of compounding and potentially being at a lower tax bracket on exit (even 40% vs 45%), may be worth to overcome the 35bp charges.
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on Mar 21, 2019 12:47:01 GMT
Dividends from shares are not income. They are a forced capital gains distribution. Income from shares is equivalent to their total return (capital gains and dividends)
Don’t be fooled into investing for dividends, especially now that they are much more highly taxed outside of ISAs
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on Mar 21, 2019 17:17:53 GMT
Don’t be fooled into investing for dividends Bull excrement.
There is nothing wrong with investing for dividends. Even more so if we're talking about an OAP such as in this thread.
A correctly managed dividend (plus perhaps some bonds and gilts on top) portfolio is a wonderful thing.
I would put it to you that there is a lot wrong with a 70 year old putting their life savings into P2P.
Agree about P2P. My point was stick to cheap diversified index investing, For an OAP one of the vanguard life strategy funds will do.
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Post by Ace on Mar 21, 2019 20:21:06 GMT
... For an OAP one of the vanguard life strategy funds will do. Is there an implication here that the Vanguard life strategy funds aren't suitable for a non-OAP? I have a friend 😉 who has the bulk of their S&S investments (at least those outside of pension wrappers) in a Vanguard LF ISA (100% equities). He's 55 and retired, so possibly a YAP.
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on Mar 21, 2019 20:28:52 GMT
... For an OAP one of the vanguard life strategy funds will do. Is there an implication here that the Vanguard life strategy funds aren't suitable for a non-OAP? I have a friend 😉 who has the bulk of their S&S investments (at least those outside of pension wrappers) in a Vanguard LF ISA (100% equities). He's 55 and retired, so possibly a YAP. VLS is a bit of insurance against cognitive decline because you can just set and (literally if you get dementia) forget.
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