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Post by sannytwist on Nov 4, 2017 6:55:08 GMT
Hi all, its been a while since l posted. Been busy with a ongoing housing matter and was wondering if someone here might have any insight or advice they can share with me about my situation.Any opinion, is appreciated. The issue began several years ago when l noticed the noise of dripping water in a wall of my bedroom. It is a stud wall and inside has communal pipework , most likely drainpipe to remove water from the flats above me which consists of a kitchen , toilet and a bedroom. The property is a ex council main door ground floor property somewhere in Scotland. Notified the housing who manages the tenement building who came out to have a look and basically just looked into the open access panel in the wall where the noise was coming from and told me there was nothing they can do as there was no evidence of water or damage. Reluctantly, l put up with the explanation and suffered this noise only to have it get progressively worst over the years. The noise is bad now and randomly occurs in intervals of 20 to 40 minutes which adds up to 2 to 3 hours a day. Everyday. The noise is very similar to the two links below, only difference is the noise is in my bedroom. www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV8JWjtGmhI www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTYFHGfz09g As you can imagine life becomes intolerable after 5 years of this noise. I'm in the process of again contacting the housing association and with no clear indication on repairs with respect to 'common parts' in the title deeds. So therefore under the 'Tenement Management Scheme' l assume it is adequate for me to contest the housing association and other leaseholders in the tenenment that this is their responsibility to adequate service or repair the communal pipes. In addition, l think l'm within my right to ask for them to replace my stud wall if they require to open it up. Has anyone experienced this before or know what l'm talking about, sorry for the long. Regards, Sanny |
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Nov 4, 2017 8:21:46 GMT
You must be pretty desperate to be posting here. Have you tried any plumbing forums, such as www.seriousaboutplumbing.com or www.diydoctor.org.uk/forums/plumbing-forum.html? I've no experience of them but they are easy enough to find with google. My (inexpert) two pennorth: 1. Having looked at some of the youtube videos near to the ones you linked to, I don't think it is dripping water. It sounds like the pipework expanding and contracting, and/or rubbing up against the framework of the building somewhere. It might be behind your wall but it might be some way away and just transmitted through the pipes. 2. If that is what it is, I'm doubtful that you have any rights against the housing association, however much the noise drives you mad. |
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Post by charlata on Nov 4, 2017 11:31:12 GMT
If they want evidence of water damage in order to investigate further, I'd be inclined to give them what they want.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Nov 4, 2017 15:41:00 GMT
Have you considered talking to the CAB? They might be able to advise as to both your rights and the best way to approach the housing association.
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Post by sannytwist on Nov 5, 2017 0:33:43 GMT
I am very desperate for some valued opinion on this, as expert advice is hard to come by. After asking a few plumbers to visit the house they all were reluctant to get involved which they explained is a common occurence but also is further complicated by the fact it is a ex council flat and major repairs on communal pipework would not be authorised by the housing. So they wont' fix it but they wont' let me fix it. They have my balls in their hands, so to speak. pikestaff , yea after doing a bit of research on the matter. It could be a combination of things as it has been 5 years but you are correct it is most likely noise coming from 'contraction/expanding' of the pipes and rubbing off any wood. Another reason could be the clamps that hold the pipes could be too tight and that creates noise too. The housing won't pay for all the repairs because it only affects me and the overall financial commitment is not cost effective for them to fix it. I assume if they wanted to fix it , it may cost them around £3000 or less. My argument is that the communal pipework doesn't serve my property but goes through my property and now it has a defect which has a huge hindrance to my quality of life for past 5 years. Its pretty significant really. In the mean time l'm going through the housing repair procedure which l was denied support 5 years ago but l never escalated the process to stage 2 which is effectively a complaint procedure from then on. After if they still won't help then l can go to the Scotland Housing Ombudsman, after that my last attempt would be to speak to a solicitor in housing law. What l want is for the housing to take reasonable and fair action, the fact that they wouldn't even inspect the pipework or other properties which share these pipes above my bedroom is shocking. When they came to my house they just looked into the open access panel on the wall the noise was coming from and said 'its totally dry, no water leak no damage' there is nothing that can be done. Problem is it has a effect on my health now, the noise is so bad l have no choice but to make a case against the housing. Anyone with a housing or legal background or solicitors here that care to make a comment? Any opinion would be appreciated. |
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Post by sannytwist on Nov 5, 2017 1:05:07 GMT
In addition, a plumber is coming out next week to have a look. Without actually seeing the problem his initial thoughts are it would cost alot of money and collaboration with other tenants to identify the specific parts of the pipe that is contracting/expanding and rectify it. Difficult but not impossible as he would need to gain access and check the connecting drain pipes to the 3 x toilets and kitchen of the properties above me. Realistically though the housing can tell me which sinks and taps are using these pipes as all 3 properties above my flat are owned by them.
An alternative solution would be to insulate the section of the pipe (wrap acoustic pipe material that reduces/absorbs noise) that comes down to my flat or insulate the wall, which effective soundproofs the noise from the pipe. However neither types of insulation is guaranteed to work . This will cost around £1000 -£1500 and require to go through the wall to access the pipes.
Just now, l'm of the opinion l should hire a solicitor and arm myself with the title deeds, time stamped recordings of the noise and look for legal advice.
I mean if the plumber told me there is a effective solution without the need to get the housing or other tenants involved l would pay and get it over and done with. However, everytime l think of paying for plumber to insulate the pipe without gurantee of it being able to reduce the noise effectively and me forking 100% of the money for pipes l don't even use. That gets my blood boiling as its not fair or reasonable.
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liso
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Post by liso on Nov 5, 2017 1:29:11 GMT
Through my business I have dealt with similar problems twice. First time the problem was due to poor configuration of pipework and there was no resolution. Second time, it was the central heating pipes of the upstairs neighbour expanding and rubbing on the joists. Easily resolved.
If you have a good local councillor or MSP, it may be worth asking for their help. Or Shelter run an advice service.
Good luck!
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Post by sannytwist on Nov 6, 2017 12:40:19 GMT
So contacted several parties which are supposedly responsible for this issue like environmental health who all who don't really want to deal with me. The usual, just passing me around.
So made up my mind, going to sought legal advice and get a quote for solicitor to send a letter to help nudge my repair enquiry in the right direction. The housing still have a few days to get back to me but will most likely will end up with 'its very normal, nothing can be done even if it affects your health' typa response.
Spoke to plumbers and this is a problem that can be fixed.
Still hoping.
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Nov 6, 2017 14:58:21 GMT
If you've not already spoken to the CAB I'd encourage you to do so before spending money on solicitors. Whoever you talk to, be accurate about the probable cause because their advice may well different if it's noisy pipes to what it would be if it was a water leak.
My suspicion is that unless you can persuade a court that the noise is a statutory nuisance you may not be able to force the housing association to do anything. But the CAB would be my first port of call.
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Post by jackpease on Nov 7, 2017 8:56:55 GMT
I write about noise and nuisance - there's lots of precedents that have reached the higher courts where attempts have been made on this sort of thing.
Nuisance is clear if someone/a premises is making excessive noise outside of what they are permitted/got planning permission for. But where the noise is 'everyday' noise eg turning on light switches, flushing the loo, shutting doors, pipework etc, and the what you hear is excessive because the building itself is at fault (old/poor sound insulation etc) then getting legal is problematic. This sort of problem can come under the housing health and safety rating system (google it) but again I don't think that the problem would reach the threshold. Very hard to think of a legal remedy or apportion 'blame'.
I'd definitely try self help ie trying to insulate the pipes (and lubricate the fastenings?) it'd be cheaper than lawyers. Consider also creating your own white noise and mindfulness - if you have very low background noise levels then anything has the potential to be annoying. It shouldn't be down to you to sort it, but sadly in practice you are probably on your own.
Also bear in mind if you go legal or complain then you need to declare that if you own the flat and want to sell it.
Jack P
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Nov 7, 2017 9:17:10 GMT
I'd agree that it will be very hard to get legal redress if the problem is noise from expanding / contracting pipes (which it's likely to be if it's noticeably worse as the weather gets cold and central heating kicks in). Rather than spending hundreds on lawyers, I'd get quotes from 3 or 4 reputable builder-decorators to: a) Open up the stud wall to expose the offending pipes b) Identify the clips / joists / etc. that are causing the noise and replace / lubricate / insulate them as appropriate, checking that it's done the trick. c) Pack the voids around the pipes with glass-wool insulation (or similar) d) Make good the areas of plasterboard removed. As you'll have to redecorate that wall anyway, consider adding a further layer of acoustic plasterboard on top (eg. www.british-gypsum.com/products/gyproc-soundbloc?tab0=0 ) e) Re-skim and decorate as required |
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Post by jackpease on Nov 7, 2017 9:46:40 GMT
Best to insulate the source - in the ideal world once you've exposed the pipes if you could enclose them in sand or something 'dead' that'd absorbs the lower frequency dripping and clicking noise better than rockwool which is better for higher frequencies eg voices
In the old days they used to fill the void between mansion blocks with plaster debris and rubble for this reason.
Also on the refit include a removable panel so you can cheaply fiddle around to get the best outcome
Jack P
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Nov 7, 2017 11:37:54 GMT
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stokeloans
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Post by stokeloans on Nov 8, 2017 21:13:37 GMT
Almost certainly copper hot water pipes coming into contact with wood.
I have it in my house, noticeably worse in the living room ceiling and in the bathroom which has just been refurbished and the heating pipes have been moved which has resulted in the noise moving too ☺️
It's something I would expect to hear in an old property to be honest....new properties tend to use plastic pipes which don't have the same characteristics as I understand it.
Your stud wall will have to be opened up to gain access but the plumber will only be able to do so much as the pipework will only have a small amount of movement with which to play with.
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