blender
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Post by blender on Dec 12, 2017 9:33:46 GMT
Should I say if this is not for me? I think yes because the platform is important to me. I read the power boat thread on FS as a parallel project and warning of what can go wrong - though Ablrate is a much better managed platform for large projects imo. I agree with Sarahcount that this is more of an equity opportunity, rather than a loan at 12%. I know nothing about the luxury boat market and can say nothing about the prospects for success - except that success seems necessary for repayment. I don't know if the parent company is good for the whole amount, but they would need to be for me to lend. The problem is with the boat itself as security, when the value of the boat surely rests on the success of the project? Two points: * The valuation has not been made for Ablrate but for the company, and the valuation is conditional on there being a market. There may be no market for this prototype, especially if the project fails. * I looked for the answer to the question 'what happens if this prototype is lost?' The question does not appear in the risks on p.16, and I cannot find any mention of current insurance. Can anyone help here? You would think that if the company has not insured the prototype, can the buyer insure it? ( I may be ignorant of marine insurance practices). So not for me, but what do I know?
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pom
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Post by pom on Dec 12, 2017 10:04:07 GMT
Well someone's obviously liking it. Personally I've only put in a quid to see what happens
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boundah
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Post by boundah on Dec 12, 2017 10:04:50 GMT
Current loan being paid back (£200k) to a shareholder. Why do they not want to transfer this for equity, if they are confident in the product? or subordinated to this loan to show confidence? There seems to be a transfer of risk to current investors To look on the bright side: AFAIK equity is normally subordinate to debt. And there are the debentures on the other assets too...
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elliotn
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Post by elliotn on Dec 12, 2017 10:09:50 GMT
Should I say if this is not for me? I think yes because the platform is important to me. I read the power boat thread on FS as a parallel project and warning of what can go wrong - though Ablrate is a much better managed platform for large projects imo. I agree with Sarahcount that this is more of an equity opportunity, rather than a loan at 12%. I know nothing about the luxury boat market and can say nothing about the prospects for success - except that success seems necessary for repayment. I don't know if the parent company is good for the whole amount, but they would need to be for me to lend. The problem is with the boat itself as security, when the value of the boat surely rests on the success of the project? Two points: * The valuation has not been made for Ablrate but for the company, and the valuation is conditional on there being a market. There may be no market for this prototype, especially if the project fails. * I looked for the answer to the question 'what happens if this prototype is lost?' The question does not appear in the risks on p.16, and I cannot find any mention of current insurance. Can anyone help here? You would think that if the company has not insured the prototype, can the buyer insure it? ( I may be ignorant of marine insurance practices). So not for me, but what do I know? Re parent co - not good for it, the only assets are its investment in this subsid & monies owed by it (Sep 16 a/c).
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fasty
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Post by fasty on Dec 12, 2017 10:25:04 GMT
Hmm I would maybe dabble at 15%, 12% isn't good enough for this one
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snowmobile
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Post by snowmobile on Dec 12, 2017 10:28:04 GMT
Current loan being paid back (£200k) to a shareholder. Why do they not want to transfer this for equity, if they are confident in the product? or subordinated to this loan to show confidence? There seems to be a transfer of risk to current investors To look on the bright side: AFAIK equity is normally subordinate to debt. And there are the debentures on the other assets too... The notes attached to the October 2017 Balance Sheet state that the investor has indicated he will reinvest monies as equity. It would be good to see a firmer guarantee of this intention.
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Post by ablrate on Dec 12, 2017 14:20:04 GMT
Should I say if this is not for me? I think yes because the platform is important to me. I read the power boat thread on FS as a parallel project and warning of what can go wrong - though Ablrate is a much better managed platform for large projects imo. I agree with Sarahcount that this is more of an equity opportunity, rather than a loan at 12%. I know nothing about the luxury boat market and can say nothing about the prospects for success - except that success seems necessary for repayment. I don't know if the parent company is good for the whole amount, but they would need to be for me to lend. The problem is with the boat itself as security, when the value of the boat surely rests on the success of the project? Two points: * The valuation has not been made for Ablrate but for the company, and the valuation is conditional on there being a market. There may be no market for this prototype, especially if the project fails. * I looked for the answer to the question 'what happens if this prototype is lost?' The question does not appear in the risks on p.16, and I cannot find any mention of current insurance. Can anyone help here? You would think that if the company has not insured the prototype, can the buyer insure it? ( I may be ignorant of marine insurance practices). So not for me, but what do I know? Hi Blender Boat is insured for loss
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blender
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Post by blender on Dec 12, 2017 14:31:40 GMT
... * I looked for the answer to the question 'what happens if this prototype is lost?' The question does not appear in the risks on p.16, and I cannot find any mention of current insurance. Can anyone help here? You would think that if the company has not insured the prototype, can the buyer insure it? ( I may be ignorant of marine insurance practices). So not for me, but what do I know? Hi Blender Boat is insured for loss Thanks, Ablrate. I hope I did not miss that info. Will leave those bidding to ask any more on insurance. I have lent my accumulated cash on the other loan, for which thank you.
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elliotn
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Post by elliotn on Dec 13, 2017 7:52:46 GMT
Current loan being paid back (£200k) to a shareholder. Why do they not want to transfer this for equity, if they are confident in the product? or subordinated to this loan to show confidence? There seems to be a transfer of risk to current investors To look on the bright side: AFAIK equity is normally subordinate to debt. And there are the debentures on the other assets too... The borrower has net liabilities (ie costs of development/marketing before any sales & as the company is technically insolvent there's no real equity behind us, just cumulative losses) and the parent company only has assets in the borrower so be careful of the weighting placed on the debentures in your investment. As for the value of the chattels mortage on the prototype there have been no sales yet so final market price is still to be determined.
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elliotn
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Post by elliotn on Dec 13, 2017 8:00:03 GMT
I think it is really excellent that a delay before the start of bidding has been applied to this loan. If only we had enjoyed the same due diligence period for the last seaborne loan. Genius idea.
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blender
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Post by blender on Dec 13, 2017 8:52:22 GMT
To look on the bright side: AFAIK equity is normally subordinate to debt. And there are the debentures on the other assets too... The borrower has net liabilities (ie costs of development/marketing before any sales & as the company is technically insolvent there's no real equity behind us, just cumulative losses) and the parent company only has assets in the borrower so be careful of the weighting placed on the debentures in your investment. As for the value of the chattels mortage on the prototype there have been no sales yet so final market price is still to be determined. Your analysis seems to support this being an equity/venture capital opportunity. As there is a lack of income, it would appear that the loan amount includes the means of paying some or all of the interest (and the fees of course). And the value of the prototype in three years' time will be?
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stevio
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Post by stevio on Dec 13, 2017 9:16:23 GMT
The borrower has net liabilities (ie costs of development/marketing before any sales & as the company is technically insolvent there's no real equity behind us, just cumulative losses) and the parent company only has assets in the borrower so be careful of the weighting placed on the debentures in your investment. As for the value of the chattels mortage on the prototype there have been no sales yet so final market price is still to be determined. Your analysis seems to support this being an equity/venture capital opportunity. As there is a lack of income, it would appear that the loan amount includes the means of paying some or all of the interest (and the fees of course). And the value of the prototype in three years' time will be?
Asset that decreases in value and increases LTV with term and no offsetting amortisation. Along with the prospect of needing sales to service the interest payments, if no sales are quickly forthcoming, the longer you are in this loan the worst it seems to become
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Nomad
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Post by Nomad on Dec 13, 2017 9:28:42 GMT
Your analysis seems to support this being an equity/venture capital opportunity. As there is a lack of income, it would appear that the loan amount includes the means of paying some or all of the interest (and the fees of course). And the value of the prototype in three years' time will be?
Asset that decreases in value and increases LTV with term and no offsetting amortisation. Along with the prospect of needing sales to service the interest payments, if no sales are quickly forthcoming, the longer you are in this loan the worst it seems to become Sales promotion requires attendance at major international boat shows - cost for Miami [February 15 - 19 2018] is given as £100,000...
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blender
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Post by blender on Dec 13, 2017 10:38:59 GMT
Which may explain why the minimum is £300k. The chap who is having his £200k loan repaid from this loan will leave the current assets about zero, plus the balance of this loan. £300k leaves them £100k to get them through Miami, including loan interest and fees. After that they will need more cash, either from the £170k balance of a full £470k Ablrate loan, or from the chap with the equity option reinvesting some or all of the £200k as equity - or both up to a total of approx £370k. If I had just required and received my £200k back, I think I would wait and see how Miami goes before making a decision on an equity investment (assuming I had that option). If I were an Ablrate lender I would worry about the possibility of a position after Miami where there might be insufficient cash to do much more. Possibly having bought the prototype boat and its IP for £300k.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2017 11:07:23 GMT
If you read the promotional matl you discover these craft are for sale to high net worth individuals (not just the common or garden £25m net asset types like most of us), then goes on to explain that the thing uses 25% less fuel than a similar boat. I'm not sure many people who own £25m care about the cost of fuel, the Aston Martin AM37 is only $1.6million, who would pay £650k for this toy. www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtWx7uxz9fYThe "wave-diver" concept the designer loves has a strong historical basis, before WW1 the RN had a fleet of frigates built that worked on a single hull to dive through the waves, they had to be scrapped after the crews became sea-sick (roll) and tired of being wet and cold. Moving the thing onto two hulls and lifting above the wet wobbly stuff is a good solution. However every web video I've dug out shows the thing out in 2 to 4 wind speeds and waves of far less than a foot in height. Logically going at 45 degrees to large waves would be horrible but maybe my imagination is unfairly concerned and these things perform fine, if only I could see it. I see the term "day boat" is used, probably only to be used in protected waters like the solent NB rivers have speed limits. The hulls are also used to trim the boat (by pumping water and fuel about) all seems so complicated. "you do have to concentrate a bit" as the youtube says, I hope so at those speeds you'd need other traffic avoidance radar as well. "if you line the waves up perfectly you cut straight through them". From a boating point of view I would run for the hills.
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