jlend
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Post by jlend on Feb 28, 2019 12:51:33 GMT
Just for information. This is the FCA email address if you ever want to ask them a question.
consumer.queries@fca.org.uk
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aju
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Post by aju on Feb 28, 2019 14:21:10 GMT
Just for information. This is the FCA email address if you ever want to ask them a question. consumer.queries@fca.org.uk Noted, thanks
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rscal
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Post by rscal on Feb 28, 2019 17:22:50 GMT
And the nominees for "Most Clear, Honest and Transparent communications in 2018" are....
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aju
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Post by aju on Feb 28, 2019 17:25:05 GMT
And the nominees for "Most Clear, Honest and Transparent communications in 2018" are.... I assume you are not referring to my posts ....
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jlend
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Post by jlend on Feb 28, 2019 19:20:48 GMT
This is the response from RS. I am not going to respond to RS until I get a response from the FCA, then I will respond to both of them at the same time.
RS didn't copy in the FCA in their response to me.
I will put the response I get from the FCA in another post.
I find it curious there is no requirement or expectation to provide the exact wording of any change prior to having to accept them to avoid any ambiguity.
Without seeing the wording I don't feel it is possible to ask all the potential questions that there might be.
It is interesting a contract can be accepted without seeing a copy of it, and there is no FCA requirement related to this.
-------------
Thank you for your email.
It is not a FCA requirement for us to send out the new full terms and conditions that are being released on the 20th of March. We are required to send notification of the changes that are being proposed before hand. The link you have attached to this email, clearly lays out the proposed changes to the terms and conditions and is our notification of the changes.
If you have any questions regarding these changes, please do not hesitate to ask.
Kind Regards
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aju
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Post by aju on Mar 1, 2019 0:53:30 GMT
Yeah that's roughly word for word what I got from them after they changed the CSA, the previous CSA obviously got fed up with regurgitating their same answer. I bounced it back again with a similar question as yours and told them that I was a new member Since november and did not have all the emails they are alleged have all the relevant info.
I specifically pulled out these 2 in my latest response as clearly not acceptable to me. I guess I am flogging a dead horse with keep asking different questions as all I am getting is a standard politically response, yes we do bother the MP's with a lot of letters. It is is quite fun trying to reword the same question over and again - I know how Andrew Neil feels now although I tend to be rather more polite than he usually is.
Perhaps that's the point though they are hoping we may go away. At least with Zopa CS feel like they are interested RS just feels like AI is on the other end. The 2 I've dealt with so far have a polite bit at the end.
"I hope this helps with your query, If you have any questions regarding these changes, please do not hesitate to ask."
What's the point though if they can't even answer a simply query like you state. I'll give them one last chance and then like you i'll bother the FCA. It beggars belief though that they are going to agree that there is not a simple requirement to all customers to be able to read a document before they can see it but I guess anything is possible these days.
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Stonk
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Post by Stonk on Mar 1, 2019 10:18:51 GMT
This is the response from RS. I am not going to respond to RS until I get a response from the FCA, then I will respond to both of them at the same time. RS didn't copy in the FCA in their response to me. I will put the response I get from the FCA in another post. I find it curious there is no requirement or expectation to provide the exact wording of any change prior to having to accept them to avoid any ambiguity. Without seeing the wording I don't feel it is possible to ask all the potential questions that there might be. It is interesting a contract can be accepted without seeing a copy of it, and there is no FCA requirement related to this. ------------- Thank you for your email. It is not a FCA requirement for us to send out the new full terms and conditions that are being released on the 20th of March. We are required to send notification of the changes that are being proposed before hand. The link you have attached to this email, clearly lays out the proposed changes to the terms and conditions and is our notification of the changes. If you have any questions regarding these changes, please do not hesitate to ask. Kind Regards
Obviously it is unreasonable to expect someone to agree to a contract, the meaning of which will depend on its precise wording, based upon seeing a potted summary.
It may not be an explicit FCA requirement, but that is because it is patently common sense. RS would be laughed out of Court with this logic.
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aju
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Post by aju on Mar 1, 2019 10:25:22 GMT
This is the response from RS. I am not going to respond to RS until I get a response from the FCA, then I will respond to both of them at the same time. RS didn't copy in the FCA in their response to me. I will put the response I get from the FCA in another post. I find it curious there is no requirement or expectation to provide the exact wording of any change prior to having to accept them to avoid any ambiguity. Without seeing the wording I don't feel it is possible to ask all the potential questions that there might be. It is interesting a contract can be accepted without seeing a copy of it, and there is no FCA requirement related to this. ------------- Thank you for your email. It is not a FCA requirement for us to send out the new full terms and conditions that are being released on the 20th of March. We are required to send notification of the changes that are being proposed before hand. The link you have attached to this email, clearly lays out the proposed changes to the terms and conditions and is our notification of the changes. If you have any questions regarding these changes, please do not hesitate to ask. Kind Regards
Obviously it is unreasonable to expect someone to agree to a contract, the meaning of which will depend on its precise wording, based upon seeing a potted summary.
It may not be an explicit FCA requirement, but that is because it is patently common sense. RS would be laughed out of Court with this logic.
That's my view too, but I wonder if anyone is ever going to take them to a court, surely the FCA should be the ones in control of this stuff otherwise what's the point of them in the first place. (I know its a bit too naive to expect the regulators to be on top of this stuff especially in this fledgeling arena but they should be!). RS have one last opportunity from me, although to be fair I'm not sure I should have written my reply to them quite so incensed at there obvious lack of interest but Mrs Aju wanted me to come and have my dinner and I was on a roll and just pinged it off as it was and went and fed myself. I wonder what they may have in there that they want to be hiding ...
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Stonk
Stonking
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Post by Stonk on Mar 1, 2019 10:41:29 GMT
Obviously it is unreasonable to expect someone to agree to a contract, the meaning of which will depend on its precise wording, based upon seeing a potted summary.
It may not be an explicit FCA requirement, but that is because it is patently common sense. RS would be laughed out of Court with this logic.
That's my view too, but I wonder if anyone is ever going to take them to a court, surely the FCA should be the ones in control of this stuff otherwise what's the point of them in the first place. (I know its a bit too naive to expect the regulators to be on top of this stuff especially in this fledgeling arena but they should be!). RS have one last opportunity from me, although to be fair I'm not sure I should have written my reply to them quite so incensed at there obvious lack of interest but Mrs Aju wanted me to come and have my dinner and I was on a roll and just pinged it off as it was and went and fed myself. I wonder what they may have in there that they want to be hiding ...
Indeed, it is unlikely to end up in Court. The principle irks me, but in practice if I don't like the T&Cs when I read them after I have been deemed to have accepted them, then I will withdraw my acceptance by not using RS any more. After all -- unless they slip something abominable into the new T&Cs -- the cost of exiting the contract with RS before reading the T&Cs is the same as it is afterwards.
If they did slip something materially detrimental into the new T&Cs, for example a monthly fee of £100, which you're deemed to have accepted before you even knew about it, then the chance of that being enforcable is absolutely nil.
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aju
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Post by aju on Mar 1, 2019 10:52:48 GMT
That's my view too, but I wonder if anyone is ever going to take them to a court, surely the FCA should be the ones in control of this stuff otherwise what's the point of them in the first place. (I know its a bit too naive to expect the regulators to be on top of this stuff especially in this fledgeling arena but they should be!). RS have one last opportunity from me, although to be fair I'm not sure I should have written my reply to them quite so incensed at there obvious lack of interest but Mrs Aju wanted me to come and have my dinner and I was on a roll and just pinged it off as it was and went and fed myself. I wonder what they may have in there that they want to be hiding ...
Indeed, it is unlikely to end up in Court. The principle irks me, but in practice if I don't like the T&Cs when I read them after I have been deemed to have accepted them, then I will withdraw my acceptance by not using RS any more. After all -- unless they slip something abominable into the new T&Cs -- the cost of exiting the contract with RS before reading the T&Cs is the same as it is afterwards.
If they did slip something materially detrimental into the new T&Cs, for example a monthly fee of £100, which you're deemed to have accepted before you even knew about it, then the chance of that being enforcable is absolutely nil.
I bet there is 99% of people who never even spotted this and are just going about their day happy in the knowledge that there is a regulator to monitor and provide wrist slaps and only when they come up against an issue will then get annoyed. I guess it's an inertia thingy!. I do agree with your sentiments of leave if I don't like and you are right I never understood the penalties other than the hidden ones either. In the event of something like your £100 fee etc I would start to be more belligerent and let's face it I have all the time in the world to have a go at them in a real way, mind you i'd do this on twitter rather than here or via email but so far it's never got that far on Zopa where I have had good service on the whole and I don't expect it to on RS either - they wouldn't want too many people understanding their potential inadequacies I feel either.
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rscal
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Post by rscal on Mar 1, 2019 11:29:05 GMT
This is going off-topic, but when a bank (oh, I dunno, 'an HSBC' say!) is 'fined' by its regulator (say $1.5 billion for money laundering) and no one goes to jail..
1) 'who' keeps the fine money [prolly the regulator, but this is a legitimate question]?
2) 'who' really pays that fine money? [it's all the customers of course!]
It seems baffling to me that money is taken out of a business to 'punish' it and no one sees this as governmental shakedown of consumers. No... it's 'protection' somehow.
Still more off-topic did you read that TSB paid out £125 miilion in 'compensation' [cough! 'cashback'] to customers who were affected and complained. I did receive a fiver paid into my credit card account (the one that dried up in terms of statement production and direct debit collection and which I have now closed as I can't be dealing with ineptiude) but doesn't that figure say something about how they probably went about addressing complaining customers 'individually' when the CEO was not yet out of the door?
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aju
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Post by aju on Mar 1, 2019 11:34:36 GMT
This is going off-topic, but when a bank (oh, I dunno, 'an HSBC' say!) is 'fined' by its regulator (say $1.5 billion for money laundering) and no one goes to jail..
1) 'who' keeps the fine money [prolly the regulator, but this is a legitimate question]?
2) 'who' really pays that fine money? [it's all the customers of course!]
It seems baffling to me that money is taken out of a business to 'punish' it and no one sees this as governmental shakedown of consumers. No... it's 'protection' somehow.
Still more off-topic did you read that TSB paid out £125 miilion in 'compensation' [cough! 'cashback'] to customers who were affected and complained. I did receive a fiver paid into my credit card account (the one that dried up in terms of statement production and direct debit collection and which I have now closed as I can't be dealing with ineptiude) but doesn't that figure say something about how they probably went about addressing complaining customers 'individually' when the CEO was not yet out of the door?
Oy don't complain about TSB too much, on the other hand don't stop, we are both picking up 5% on our 4 accounts in TSB thankyou very much!. "Every little helps" especially if its not Tesco's who just dropped their 3% to 1% in June .
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jlend
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Post by jlend on Mar 1, 2019 16:27:52 GMT
As promised the response from the FCA.
Quite generic in nature as I expected, and open to interpretation. The FCA have highlighted:
PRIN 2 which relates to skill, care and diligence. PRIN 6, treating customers fairly, and PRIN 7, firms must communicate information to consumers in a way which is clear, fair and not misleading
I won't be submitting a compliant, as I said I was just curious about the situation.
I am assuming the FCA aren't going to follow-up with RS. Sometimes in the past the FCA have replied by saying "Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. I will be making this information available to our Supervisory teams. " I took that as a hint they were following up.
---------------------------------
Thank you for contacting the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA). I understand you're wanting to know where we have any rules about firms providing terms and conditions to consumers before agreeing. You mentioned Ratesetter are due to introduce new terms and conditions but are only available to consumers from 20th March.
Your qeury
Our rules and guidelines would apply depending on the types of services the firm are providing you with and the kind of investment. Not all investments and financial services fall within our area of regulation.
If it's in relation to a regulated activity, you may wish to refer to our rules within the Conduct of Business Sourcebook (COBS 14) regarding providing product information to clients.
Our rules
As the firm is regulated by us, our rules and guidelines would apply. We expect all firms we regulate to follow the rules and guidelines we have in place. We have High Level Principles outlined in the FCA Handbook which includes PRIN 2 which relates to skill, care and diligence. PRIN 6, treating customers fairly, and PRIN 7, firms must communicate information to consumers in a way which is clear, fair and not misleading.
Your next steps
If you feel the firm are treating you unfairly, then they may have the option to go through the formal complaints process. As the regulators, we don’t look into individual cases, however, you may have the option to escalate the case with the Financial Ombudsman Service. The Financial Ombudsman Service have the authority to look into individual cases and can mediate between yourself and the firms to see exactly what's happened and they can determine whether they can look into it for you further.
What I will do with the information
Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. Just to set expectations, when you provide us this information, we wouldn't be able to provide you with an update to what we do with the information you've provided us due to the restrictions on the information we can share. I can appreciate this may be frustrating but please rest assured the information will be reviewed carefully.
If you have any further queries, please don’t hesitate to contact us again quoting case reference number: xxxxxxx.
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aju
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Post by aju on Mar 2, 2019 0:09:02 GMT
Ah now that's very interesting about the financial ombudsman, so if I complain to RS and they do not finish my complaint to satisfaction and provide me with a full and final letter of conclusion, that's probably eight weeks I believe, then I can take this to the Financial Ombudsman who will investigate on my behalf and make an independant decision.
In cases with the banks they usually offer some form of compensation (Pay off) but that's probably because they deal with the Ombudsman enough to easily trigger the requirement for them to pay per case. I think it's about £500 after a certain number of cases it used to 25 I believe. Simple cases probably don't trigger the cost though.
Also If I get nothing from RS within eight weeks I can also go to them. I can't remember doing one of these to the finance ombudsman but I have done them to the ofgem ones regarding problems with some gas/leccy companies and it's been quite an interesting exercise - I won in both the cases I dealt with but to be fair they were clearly in the wrong unlike this case. In those cases it was all done in online forms sent back and forth very easy to do.
So for my last email to RS I've not had a response yet, i'll wait and see what they say again. Then I'll wait and see what happens with the T&C's - I've got the old one copied and whilst RS seemed to suggest they have made a considerable rearrange of some of them hopefully "PDF compare" will show much of the changes. For me if there is anything there I am not happy with then I will deal accordingly.(I am not expecting them to have anything in there but who knows why one has to accept them before one see them! sets the alarm bells on for me)
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aju
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Post by aju on Mar 15, 2019 17:57:39 GMT
I got this from RS yesterday after I pushed back again on their terms and conditions having to be accepted before we can read them in full on the 20th. Obviously seeing the actual terms and conditions will give us a chance to see if this happens but I thought it was a positive move forwards. HTH
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