puddleduck
Member of DD Central
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Post by puddleduck on Apr 26, 2020 13:32:12 GMT
I've just spotted that its possible to get a quote for a loan again www.ratesetter.com/borrow/personal-loansI've not read anything about RS re-opening for loans again, but this has to be good news for the long term future of the platform.
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puddleduck
Member of DD Central
Posts: 537
Likes: 489
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Post by puddleduck on Apr 26, 2020 13:56:14 GMT
I've just spotted that its possible to get a quote for a loan again www.ratesetter.com/borrow/personal-loansI've not read anything about RS re-opening for loans again, but this has to be good news for the long term future of the platform. Yes lending out the money of the investors that want to withdraw. I look at this more positively - a platform is more likely to attract new lenders (who would buy into the RYI queue) than a platform that has stalled lending.
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alanh
Posts: 556
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Post by alanh on Apr 26, 2020 15:01:20 GMT
Yes lending out the money of the investors that want to withdraw. I look at this more positively - a platform is more likely to attract new lenders (who would buy into the RYI queue) than a platform that has stalled lending. Will be interesting to watch the RYI numbers over the next couple of weeks. If they stay around the £5m per week level and RS has resumed lending then its a positive sign.
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sl75
Posts: 2,092
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Post by sl75 on Apr 26, 2020 19:36:44 GMT
I've just spotted that its possible to get a quote for a loan again www.ratesetter.com/borrow/personal-loansI've not read anything about RS re-opening for loans again, but this has to be good news for the long term future of the platform. Yes lending out the money of the investors that want to withdraw. Pretty sure the only investors' money they'll be lending out are the ones who are not actively trying to withdraw, but instead are continuing to re-invest their money (and of those, only the investors who are sticking with at "going rate" or thereabouts).
Unless the market fundamentally changes, all investors who WANT to be out can do so within the term of the underlying loans, all of which are less than 5 years duration.
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gg
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Post by gg on Apr 26, 2020 21:28:09 GMT
The issue is that some lenders have had their RYI returned in full. Those who are last to leave will pick up ALL of the bad debt which is likely to be enormous due to Covid-19. The provision fund will run dry.
gg
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Post by diversifier on Apr 27, 2020 10:32:14 GMT
The issue is that some lenders have had their RYI returned in full. Those who are last to leave will pick up ALL of the bad debt which is likely to be enormous due to Covid-19. The provision fund will run dry. gg Your suggestion/request makes no sense, because it prioritises (percentage-wise) the interests of small investors (for whom £1k represents a significant return of capital), in a way not laid down in the original Ts and Cs. Guaranteed liquidity and capital safety for a small investor are available as FSCS-guaranteed bank accounts, which have lower interest rates. I’m not being snarky here. Honestly, 3% interest is not nearly enough to give up the safety of a classic bank account. But I soon run out of £85k limits. You can get Islamic Finance banks that give 2%-not-interest FSCS capital guaranteed. So, once I’m outside the FSCS limit anyway, that’s when I want some yield to compensate inevitable capital risk, and I look to P2P. To address the underlying concern that the provision fund might run dry. It might, and there again it might not, it’s an investment risk that we all signed up to. There is a current liquidity shortage, and I can’t see any RYI strategy fairer than queuing requests. Same selling strategy at any broker if you try to sell a lightly traded share after bad news, and same issue. Bear in mind that unlike shares, even the worst-case default ratio in this situation is unlikely to exceed 5-10% over previous predictions. That in itself would be considered a very bad result, and I have no reason to think it would be that bad, but those at the back of the queue are unlikely to lose more than that. This is a liquidity crisis, not a solvency crisis, and it’s nothing like the fiascos over at FS, LY or now FC. However, it is true that those at the back of the queue may get locked in for up to the underlying loan term, which is 22 months average outstanding. You should get your money back within 2-3yrs worst-case. The term-value Ts and Cs is more my beef with the Access fund in general, rather than the current situation. Which is why I am RYI’ing Access but not 5-yr! I always had in my assumptions that Rolling and then Access could lock up, but I assumed (reasonably) that with an average loan term of 28 months, my term risk was 12-16months. I have been very unhappy to discover that the *average outstanding* term of loans in my personal Access loan portfolio is 33 months. One of the two major parameters for any investment spreadsheet (more important than interest rate) is over double what the company told me. There seem to be “reasons”, but I don’t really care. It’s this fact that makes Access simply un-investable for me, irrespective of market conditions or interest rate. The original 1-yr and 5-yr markets are unaffected by this “term bug”, and would remain investable because they do what they say. For me, Rolling was the runoff from 5yr, and I understood Rolling correctly, but some “minor” changes caused major impacts to Access term structure, and I was too lazy to notice.
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Post by freefalljunkie on Apr 27, 2020 13:22:34 GMT
The issue is that some lenders have had their RYI returned in full. Those who are last to leave will pick up ALL of the bad debt which is likely to be enormous due to Covid-19. The provision fund will run dry. gg Your suggestion/request makes no sense, because it prioritises (percentage-wise) the interests of small investors (for whom £1k represents a significant return of capital), in a way not laid down in the original Ts and Cs. Guaranteed liquidity and capital safety for a small investor are available as FSCS-guaranteed bank accounts, which have lower interest rates. I’m not being snarky here. Honestly, 3% interest is not nearly enough to give up the safety of a classic bank account. But I soon run out of £85k limits. You can get Islamic Finance banks that give 2%-not-interest FSCS capital guaranteed. So, once I’m outside the FSCS limit anyway, that’s when I want some yield to compensate inevitable capital risk, and I look to P2P. To address the underlying concern that the provision fund might run dry. It might, and there again it might not, it’s an investment risk that we all signed up to. There is a current liquidity shortage, and I can’t see any RYI strategy fairer than queuing requests. Same selling strategy at any broker if you try to sell a lightly traded share after bad news, and same issue. Bear in mind that unlike shares, even the worst-case default ratio in this situation is unlikely to exceed 5-10% over previous predictions. That in itself would be considered a very bad result, and I have no reason to think it would be that bad, but those at the back of the queue are unlikely to lose more than that. This is a liquidity crisis, not a solvency crisis, and it’s nothing like the fiascos over at FS, LY or now FC. However, it is true that those at the back of the queue may get locked in for up to the underlying loan term, which is 22 months average outstanding. You should get your money back within 2-3yrs worst-case. The term-value Ts and Cs is more my beef with the Access fund in general, rather than the current situation. Which is why I am RYI’ing Access but not 5-yr! I always had in my assumptions that Rolling and then Access could lock up, but I assumed (reasonably) that with an average loan term of 28 months, my term risk was 12-16months. I have been very unhappy to discover that the *average outstanding* term of loans in my personal Access loan portfolio is 33 months. One of the two major parameters for any investment spreadsheet (more important than interest rate) is over double what the company told me. There seem to be “reasons”, but I don’t really care. It’s this fact that makes Access simply un-investable for me, irrespective of market conditions or interest rate. The original 1-yr and 5-yr markets are unaffected by this “term bug”, and would remain investable because they do what they say. For me, Rolling was the runoff from 5yr, and I understood Rolling correctly, but some “minor” changes caused major impacts to Access term structure, and I was too lazy to notice. I'd be really interested to know your thinking about why the worst case default rate is unlikely to be 5-10% worse than previous predictions. I had been fearing it could be far worse than that.
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Post by diversifier on Apr 27, 2020 16:50:34 GMT
I'd be really interested to know your thinking about why the worst case default rate is unlikely to be 5-10% worse than previous predictions. I had been fearing it could be far worse than that. I don’t have direct figures to predict historical consumer default rates, but I do have these observations: A*/A rated consumers have ~0.5% default rates in normal times. That’s “sort of” equivalent to BBB corporate bonds, considered bottom of investment grade or top of junk. That risk mapping is also “sort of” justified by noting that the rates we are getting off RS were similar to the high end of high-yield bond funds dealing in investment grade while avoiding true junk bond funds. My highest yield bond funds (which I got out of with some loss but avoiding the worst) crashed by 20% before partially recovering to stand 12% below pre-Covid. So, the markets are pricing in a 12% default rate excess on that. Those are insane default rates by any standards of the current generation, but probably realistic in the circumstances. Nevertheless, it’s *only* 12% loss of capital. The paper below has a graph showing that over the past 150 years, US corporate bond defaults have hit 5% a few times, for events like world wars, and 10% just once during the popping of the railroad bubble in the 1870s. 2008 barely flickers to 3% in that perspective. www.nber.org/papers/w15848.pdfI know that it’s a different asset class, but ultimately consumers pay their debts when companies can afford to pay their salaries. RS consumer borrowers below A*/A should have had their interest rate adjusted appropriately; the evidence of whether RS have the technical expertise to map that correctly, is that their estimates of default rates pre-covid have tracked fairly close to the mark.
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Post by freefalljunkie on Apr 27, 2020 18:24:44 GMT
Interesting analysis, thanks!
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mrdc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 73
Likes: 33
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Post by mrdc on Apr 27, 2020 19:14:33 GMT
I'd be really interested to know your thinking about why the worst case default rate is unlikely to be 5-10% worse than previous predictions. I had been fearing it could be far worse than that. I don’t have direct figures to predict historical consumer default rates, but I do have these observations: A*/A rated consumers have ~0.5% default rates in normal times. That’s “sort of” equivalent to BBB corporate bonds, considered bottom of investment grade or top of junk. That risk mapping is also “sort of” justified by noting that the rates we are getting off RS were similar to the high end of high-yield bond funds dealing in investment grade while avoiding true junk bond funds. My highest yield bond funds (which I got out of with some loss but avoiding the worst) crashed by 20% before partially recovering to stand 12% below pre-Covid. So, the markets are pricing in a 12% default rate excess on that. Those are insane default rates by any standards of the current generation, but probably realistic in the circumstances. Nevertheless, it’s *only* 12% loss of capital. The paper below has a graph showing that over the past 150 years, US corporate bond defaults have hit 5% a few times, for events like world wars, and 10% just once during the popping of the railroad bubble in the 1870s. 2008 barely flickers to 3% in that perspective. www.nber.org/papers/w15848.pdfI know that it’s a different asset class, but ultimately consumers pay their debts when companies can afford to pay their salaries. RS consumer borrowers below A*/A should have had their interest rate adjusted appropriately; the evidence of whether RS have the technical expertise to map that correctly, is that their estimates of default rates pre-covid have tracked fairly close to the mark. Positive way to look at this by finding a near equivalent asset class and looking for historic data. Very good post and more reassuring than the * reassuring * statements made by many p2p platforms during this pandemic. Thanks for your thoughts.
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