woodie
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Post by woodie on Dec 18, 2020 13:02:20 GMT
Hi I'm new to the party, less than two months, so never used the old SM system but have happily been using ASMX (what does this stand for?) approx 60 buys and 4 sales.
I thought I understood the system but can't, really can't, understand the two DBW posts above.
Can anybody help, thanks in advance.
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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Dec 18, 2020 14:14:37 GMT
Hi I'm new to the party, less than two months, so never used the old SM system but have happily been using ASMX (what does this stand for?) approx 60 buys and 4 sales. I thought I understood the system but can't, really can't, understand the two DBW posts above. Can anybody help, thanks in advance. Not sure I could in an unbiased way, probably something for ablrate to elaborate on. Arguably not on this thread though. Apologies to ladywhitenap for the brief hijacking.
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Post by Ace on Dec 18, 2020 14:22:56 GMT
Hi I'm new to the party, less than two months, so never used the old SM system but have happily been using ASMX (what does this stand for?) approx 60 buys and 4 sales. I thought I understood the system but can't, really can't, understand the two DBW posts above. Can anybody help, thanks in advance. I don't think I can help but thought I would assure you that you're not the only one who's confused and annoyed by the unwillingness to divulge the terms under which the Liquidity Providers operate, despite being a fairly long term active user of the SM. I'm not even sure whether Liquidity Providers is just a fancy name for underwriters, or whether it's something more than that. I've never noticed a problem with liquidity on the SM/LE. Liquidity always seems to be available for active loans, it's just a matter of price, which I thought was determined by a free and fair market. All this talk of Liquidity Providers, Bots, etc is making me doubt this. Again, we NEED a proper explanation of the terms so that we can make our own judgement on whether to trade. I've drastically reduced my participation in the LE while I wait for a proper explanation. As far as the LE goes, it's now, finally, roughly equivalent in functionality to the old SM. The touted advantages are not really apparent to an average user like me. I never found any issue with speed on the SM. But if it provides advantages for ABLrate going forwards then I accept that is a good thing. I don't think it will become apparent until these new platforms, that are perpetually imminent, start using it.
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blender
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Post by blender on Dec 18, 2020 15:33:43 GMT
Hi I'm new to the party, less than two months, so never used the old SM system but have happily been using ASMX (what does this stand for?) approx 60 buys and 4 sales. I thought I understood the system but can't, really can't, understand the two DBW posts above. Can anybody help, thanks in advance. I am not sophisticated enough to fully understand the replies and would not be sufficiently engaged to be a liquidity provider. But I do appreciate the replies from Ablrate.
I rather like the compartmentalised and inefficient market of separate platforms. It suits investors who are self-certified sophisticated but are not super-sophisticated and rich p2pers. The reply gives an insight of the vision of Ablrate for ASMX to provide the equalising of risk/reward over a number of p2p platforms. Presumably that operates not just on loan risk but on platform risk also - a major risk that many have discovered. Ablrate has a good track record both on returns and on platform performance/confidence, and I wonder just how many other platforms will wish to be judged against Ablrate through this ASMX market.
I also worry that the ASMX project requires a direction of travel for p2p which conflicts with the actually contraction over recent years. Much of that encouraged by the regulator, who has enough difficulty supervising individual platforms without having to worry about the effects of connectivity - if there are any consequences on, say, the regulation of risk assessment. I fear that the gains of the nanny or parental state during 2020 are not easily to be given up, and the FCA are not going to be wanting the reputational risk and cost of a developing p2p sector. Now, about those loans in the pipeline ...
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macq
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Post by macq on Dec 18, 2020 16:32:36 GMT
while i appreciate the replies from ABL and understand the change to a new exchange may have be done with the best intentions of all investors it kinda feels to me that the answers suggest a path towards more the HNW & very sophisticated investor which might even be a good thing for the company but in someways this is going full circle to the people who would have been investing in these products 10 year ago pre p2p rather then a pooled effort by hundreds/thousands of investors as hoped for at the start of p2p While AMSX allowing in the future the ability to trade on other platforms is interesting i do wonder how DD will be carried out by the investor or whether they will be interested in loans from companies that they have decide not to join in the first place? But if you compere it to a stocks & shares platform (once the other products are offered) then you only had to see the fallout to something like Woodford for the likes of HL earlier in the year to see what the reaction would be if a loan or platform goes bad after being offered on AMSX for ABL's name ( but that assumes i have understood AMSX of course?)
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Post by ablrate on Dec 18, 2020 17:42:51 GMT
while i appreciate the replies from ABL and understand the change to a new exchange may have be done with the best intentions of all investors it kinda feels to me that the answers suggest a path towards more the HNW & very sophisticated investor which might even be a good thing for the company but in someways this is going full circle to the people who would have been investing in these products 10 year ago pre p2p rather then a pooled effort by hundreds/thousands of investors as hoped for at the start of p2p While AMSX allowing in the future the ability to trade on other platforms is interesting i do wonder how DD will be carried out by the investor or whether they will be interested in loans from companies that they have decide not to join in the first place? But if you compere it to a stocks & shares platform (once the other products are offered) then you only had to see the fallout to something like Woodford for the likes of HL earlier in the year to see what the reaction would be if a loan or platform goes bad after being offered on AMSX for ABL's name ( but that assumes i have understood AMSX of course?) The intention is for everyone to have a level playing field, so you are able to lend alongside institutional /professional investors. The way we look at it is that institutions are just investing your money anyway, so why wouldn't we allow retail to do it directly. The only way we will move away from retail is if we are forced to by the regulators. You will be able to download documents and have the same information as any investor would have on another platform. It won't be open to every platform, so each one will have to be vetted and approved and when new platforms join, all platforms will have to agree (within reason). However, ultimately you guys are still taking the risk, there is no getting away from that so our job is to give you the tools to do so affectively.
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Post by dan1 on Dec 18, 2020 21:26:19 GMT
I like your attitude to risk Ace. Taking money off the table in the presence of new risks (whether real or perceived is immaterial) is entirely rational. I'm minded of the Buffett(?) adage never invest in a business you don't understand. Personally, I'm struggling to see the bigger picture. Developing sophisticated markets, front ends, back ends etc is admirable but the costs are not insignificant. Servicing these costs requires a burgeoning loan book but sufficiently scaling a 1% pcm offering seems nion impossible without compromising the underlying platform risk. Perhaps this is where a white label solution comes into its own and in 10 years time we'll see not just P2P markets operating on ASMX, I don't know. There are several concerns with Liquidity Providers utilising APIs for their trading. Top of that list would be how do the platform deal with the fallout the first time a bunch of retail investors get "done" by a Liquidity Provider acting first on pertinent new information? That's not to imply the Liquidty Providers have access to information retail investors don't but their pseudo-AI gives them speed. Yes, it happens already but somehow it feels different. One other issue is regulation. Given the scale of the market and the complexity/intricacy I suggest it's simply not worth detailed effort from the regulators (not that they do much anyway) so essentially it's based on trust. I'm ok with that because on the fundamentals I trust Ablrate (but that trust has limits!).
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blender
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Post by blender on Dec 21, 2020 11:29:21 GMT
I am rather surprised that no-one wishes to collect cash for a loan through the holiday period. I was expecting to find a home for some cash. Good to see the SM looking strong, though.
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Post by ablrate on Dec 21, 2020 14:13:06 GMT
I like your attitude to risk Ace . Taking money off the table in the presence of new risks (whether real or perceived is immaterial) is entirely rational. I'm minded of the Buffett(?) adage never invest in a business you don't understand. Personally, I'm struggling to see the bigger picture. Developing sophisticated markets, front ends, back ends etc is admirable but the costs are not insignificant. Servicing these costs requires a burgeoning loan book but sufficiently scaling a 1% pcm offering seems nion impossible without compromising the underlying platform risk. Perhaps this is where a white label solution comes into its own and in 10 years time we'll see not just P2P markets operating on ASMX, I don't know. There are several concerns with Liquidity Providers utilising APIs for their trading. Top of that list would be how do the platform deal with the fallout the first time a bunch of retail investors get "done" by a Liquidity Provider acting first on pertinent new information? That's not to imply the Liquidty Providers have access to information retail investors don't but their pseudo-AI gives them speed. Yes, it happens already but somehow it feels different. One other issue is regulation. Given the scale of the market and the complexity/intricacy I suggest it's simply not worth detailed effort from the regulators (not that they do much anyway) so essentially it's based on trust. I'm ok with that because on the fundamentals I trust Ablrate (but that trust has limits!). ASMX is a separate business and does not depend on Ablrate for its funding. The liquidity providers don't get any more or less information than a regular lender, in the most part they are regular lenders. The primary purpose is to provide liquidity for the ecosystem. There is a genuine issue when it becomes more sophisticated and has more data to work with and is operating as, essentially, an independent lender. But to be fair, that is at least a year away and much like we have brought in bid limits etc into the primary market we can also build tools to either assist lenders in their management of faster information flows or have sensible breaks on the bots. From a regulatory reporting situation the system should be a regulators wet dream! Nobody can manipulate any data once it has been set into a block, the privacy issues are beyond the current requirements, and lets face it if the regulators are going to be looking at anything after this year it is why some platforms had to close their doors to withdrawals (or close completely) because when a liquidity crunch came problems also occurred. If everyone was operating on ASMX these issues would have been less of an impact. When we connect platforms there will be regulatory hurdles no doubt, probably mostly around information, i.e how do we ensure lenders have the correct information make decisions.. That is what is being worked on with the tech and procedures. However connecting platforms has been done before, albeit unsuccessfully, through aggregators, so that path is there.
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Post by ablrate on Dec 21, 2020 14:13:45 GMT
I am rather surprised that no-one wishes to collect cash for a loan through the holiday period. I was expecting to find a home for some cash. Good to see the SM looking strong, though. i do believe that one will be with us, we are awaiting the final paperwork to see if we can get it closed in time.
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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Dec 21, 2020 18:27:47 GMT
I am rather surprised that no-one wishes to collect cash for a loan through the holiday period. I was expecting to find a home for some cash. Good to see the SM looking strong, though. i do believe that one will be with us, we are awaiting the final paperwork to see if we can get it closed in time. Well the DD should not be very taxing.
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Post by Ace on Dec 21, 2020 18:34:49 GMT
i do believe that one will be with us, we are awaiting the final paperwork to see if we can get it closed in time. Well the DD should not be very taxing. Especially if investing via an ISA 🤪
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criston
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Post by criston on Dec 21, 2020 18:37:47 GMT
This is not one of the original 3 mentioned previously, as they were all at 13%.
However, will the documents inform us if all WB tranches rank equally ?
And will the documents inform us if the Ist Charge loan (whether existing or the replacement) are amortising.
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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Dec 21, 2020 21:07:53 GMT
Well the DD should not be very taxing. Especially if investing via an ISA 🤪 I might keep that as a benchmark for the jokes in the crackers at Christmas. (like I could afford crackers after this year) Not what I had anticipated loan wise and i suspect many will be disappointed and wait for the January sales. I curiously am thinking I might go all in (ish in a very reserved moderate all in sort of way). Maybe ablrate could save me any reading and confirm how it ranks to the original loan?
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Post by Ace on Dec 21, 2020 21:19:41 GMT
Especially if investing via an ISA 🤪 I might keep that as a benchmark for the jokes in the crackers at Christmas. (like I could afford crackers after this year) Not what I had anticipated loan wise and i suspect many will be disappointed and wait for the January sales. I curiously am thinking I might go all in (ish in a very reserved moderate all in sort of way). Maybe ablrate could save me any reading and confirm how it ranks to the original loan? The docs for the original loan heavily hint that they will rank equally, but doesn't quite say so specifically (to my untrained mind). E.g. it states what the LTV will be when the maximum loan is drawn. Also, if the new loan was subordinate ABLrate would normally offer a higher rate.
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