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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2021 9:16:09 GMT
UK already has one battery re-user factory. Recycle and re-use.
In terms of what happens when Santa stops the wind... well we use the same process we always have, we use storage. Storage would include the 25 million electric cars that would be parked all over the country, the large battery storage units being built around the country, similar to hydrogen storage, compressed air storage in NI, water storage, connections to France, Denmark, Holland, Norway and their energy storage and ongoing generation, then tidal power, rivers etc etc etc.
Humans are good at storage
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Jun 10, 2021 11:09:12 GMT
Along with all that adrianc don't forget we also have (and will likely grow) our stored energy capability. Things like Electric Mountain might not be the most efficient form of storing energy but they're tried and tested and quick to respond (16 seconds for zero to maximum output). Add in large scale battery farms, Hydrogen powercells and anything else we come up with. We're also going to get a huge potential storage capacity in the form of personal electric vehicles and home scale power banks (like the Power Wall) which could potentially feed into the grid to cover peak demands. I'd like to see more localised generation and storage - If individuals can cover a lot of their own need from local solar and wind along with local storage then there's less demand on the grid and hopefully with fewer peaks. There's also a good case for district systems (especially in blocks of flats) where larger scale systems could be more efficient and/or more cost effective to install. Not sure how people will react to the idea that their cars could be used as storage, I can imagine if people went to the car in the morning and it had discharged rather than charged overnight so they couldn't do the school run. This is another subject to get into but people taking personal responsibility , at least one of my neighbours takes their teenager to school by car every day rather than him walking, it is just over a mile. I rather like the idea of an allowance per person/Property so lets say each house has an Energy Allowance of say 8,000 KWH , and then each person has a personal allowance of 5,000 KWH if you use less than that you are green and get rewarded with say a 5P per KWH unused , if you use more then you get hit on a sliding scale with increases in cost.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2021 11:15:11 GMT
Well the whole idea of communal energy/rights etc started back in the industrial revolution where we accepted air pollution for enhanced opportunity for wealth. Right now I see my house sells its own electricity to a vector for the state on a daily basis and buys it back over the 24 hour period. I don't think the idea of doing the same for a car when the car is parked up say at 6pm and not touched again until say 6am. Given that there will be some 23 million cars all doing the same I can see only one reason why any dumb-ass civil liberty type might feel that they need to hold onto "their" energy if it is replaced by 6am.
One would assume there might be a cost benefit offered to allow give up my car's power but I ain't writing the contract.
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littleoldlady
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Post by littleoldlady on Jun 10, 2021 11:56:50 GMT
How much CO2 did making "1 million tonnes of concrete, 200,000 tonnes of cement and 4,500 tonnes of steel" and excavating "12 million tonnes" of mountain rock create?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2021 12:14:52 GMT
Interesting point about how much CO2 is required to develop a green industry of solar and wind.
Last week we saw the first green-steel roll off the plant in Sweden where all the heating and all the reduction took place using green energy and hydrogen In terms of concrete, nearly all the materials used are inert but still need something to stick them together. Products without cement are just this year finally going mainstream so you can buy concrete with no cement in it. JCB have been trialing a Hydrogen driven "JCB" for 2 years now and slowly the building trade will be able to move to zero carbon.
All to do but very much an exciting time as business picks up the cudgel.
Did I mention ITM and TRIG as green energy investments?
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Post by bracknellboy on Jun 10, 2021 12:25:31 GMT
Interesting point about how much CO2 is required to develop a green industry of solar and wind.
Last week we saw the first green-steel roll off the plant in Sweden where all the heating and all the reduction took place using green energy and hydrogen In terms of concrete, nearly all the materials used are inert but still need something to stick them together. Products without cement are just this year finally going mainstream so you can buy concrete with no cement in it. JCB have been trialing a Hydrogen driven "JCB" for 2 years now and slowly the building trade will be able to move to zero carbon.
All to do but very much an exciting time as business picks up the cudgel.
Did I mention ITM and TRIG as green energy investments?
As I recall they have had hybrid for quite a while, and already have a range of full electric (for excavators currently only small size). Regulation or at least targets has been pushing them that way for quite a long time, as major construction firms or projects have to demonstrate how they are minimising carbon footprint (and possibly just emissions as well in controlled emission zones such as London). For anyone interested, www.jcb.com/en-gb/campaigns/etech-range
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Post by mfaxford on Jun 10, 2021 14:34:19 GMT
We're also going to get a huge potential storage capacity in the form of personal electric vehicles and home scale power banks (like the Power Wall) which could potentially feed into the grid to cover peak demands. Not sure how people will react to the idea that their cars could be used as storage, I can imagine if people went to the car in the morning and it had discharged rather than charged overnight so they couldn't do the school run. Given that a tank full of petrol gets me around 400 miles range and most of the time I fill up around once a month (even when commuting a lot I only filled up once a week). Assuming a similar range in an electric car then most of the time I wouldn't need more than 50% of the battery capacity for a days travelling (it's rare that I'd need more than 10% of the capacity, but lets leave a safe margin). That's a decent chunk of energy that could be sold back to the grid if needed. A scheme where you earn a small hourly rate for having the car hooked up and available and then a higher per unit charge for actual usage could incentivise people (especially if as the grid gets smarter you can have your car choose when to charge so it gets the cheapest rates).
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 10, 2021 19:46:25 GMT
Not sure how people will react to the idea that their cars could be used as storage Here's a thought... You'll be able to *set it*...
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Post by bernythedolt on Jun 10, 2021 23:01:42 GMT
One disincentive for allowing your electric vehicle to feed back to the grid is the enormous cost of battery replacement. Rechargeable batteries have a limited number of discharge-recharge cycles, beyond which they are scrap. One of my e-bikes quotes 1,000 cycles, for instance.
I understand some EV batteries are already, or will be shortly, supplied on a rental basis. It will be interesting to see how those rental companies warm to the idea of perhaps halving their lifecycle...
We've strayed into Heath Robinson territory.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2021 7:51:56 GMT
really good point Berny, the cycles element of batteries would be my one concern too. This is certainly one of the key issues with researchers at the moment.
The BBC has a nice article today on what life will be like post peak-ff-cars in the UK, worth a read
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Post by bracknellboy on Jun 11, 2021 8:43:26 GMT
One disincentive for allowing your electric vehicle to feed back to the grid is the enormous cost of battery replacement. Rechargeable batteries have a limited number of discharge-recharge cycles, beyond which they are scrap. One of my e-bikes quotes 1,000 cycles, for instance. I understand some EV batteries are already, or will be shortly, supplied on a rental basis. It will be interesting to see how those rental companies warm to the idea of perhaps halving their lifecycle... We've strayed into Heath Robinson territory. This was a point I made on here a number of months back: namely that while 'EVs as distributed storage' is on the face of it an attractive proposition - and some are banking on it being a formality - I think there is still significant work to be done to overcome some fundamentals: charge/discharge impact on battery life being one of them. However, this at least has the benefit of being addressable through purely financial incentives, but nonetheless the concern would be the 'cost' of such usage as opposed to purpose built battery banks would not be worth the candle. Battery Technology though of course moves on.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jun 11, 2021 8:48:39 GMT
....
The BBC has a nice article today on what life will be like post peak-ff-cars in the UK, worth a read
I read the authors initial piece on EVs a week or so ago. Sadly I personally found it to be a pretty poor piece of journalism. Considering in this case the reader was in the receptive rather than sceptic camp that was a bit of an own goal. It is true that this article ostensibly starts to discuss some of the hurdles that the author so blithely and lazily chose to either dismiss in one sentence paragraphs or simply ignore in the first article. But I wasn't particularly impressed with some of his opening on this article either so skipped over the rest of it.
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Post by mfaxford on Jun 11, 2021 8:55:08 GMT
One disincentive for allowing your electric vehicle to feed back to the grid is the enormous cost of battery replacement. Rechargeable batteries have a limited number of discharge-recharge cycles, beyond which they are scrap. One of my e-bikes quotes 1,000 cycles, for instance. But then they also degrade over time so the question will likely depend on which is the limiting factor in your own circumstance. Technology has vastly improved in terms of lithium based batteries. It used to be 300 cycles, life time of 1-2 years and charges would take 4+ hours. Back when I last looked in detail a cycle was defined as being the equivalent of a full discharge and charge so each of the following would be 1 cycle: - Discharge to empty then charge (1 charge)
- 4 days of commute using 25% of capacity and recharge after each one (4 charges with battery never going below 75% capacity left)
- a long trip using 50% capacity and recharge, then two sets of 25% capacity and recharge after each (3 charges)
The question might be are they still using the same definition for a cycle (hopefully) or have they quietly changed the definition based on how most people use things so the numbers look better (classic marketing bods)
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Jun 11, 2021 12:44:28 GMT
....
The BBC has a nice article today on what life will be like post peak-ff-cars in the UK, worth a read
I read the authors initial piece on EVs a week or so ago. Sadly I personally found it to be a pretty poor piece of journalism. Considering in this case the reader was in the receptive rather than sceptic camp that was a bit of an own goal. It is true that this article ostensibly starts to discuss some of the hurdles that the author so blithely and lazily chose to either dismiss in one sentence paragraphs or simply ignore in the first article. But I wasn't particularly impressed with some of his opening on this article either so skipped over the rest of it. IF It was the same piece I read basically saying "within a few years petrol stations will cease to exist " yes it was poor journalism. I felt very much written from a typical metropolitan BBC viewpoint with little or no consideration for the rural viewpoint. was it this article that also suggested most shops etc will give free charging, to be honest that's stupid and will discourage people from walking, as an example I can easily walk to TESCO to get food, however If I want to go and see my partner then it would make economic sense for me to drive up and put the car on charge for an hour or so whilst I dawdle round the shop. Of course this won't be free power it will be charged for in higher prices which will in effect adversely affect those without cars to benefit those with cars a more recent BBC article www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57416829Again 1 hour charge gets you 30 or so miles at a cost of a couple of pence a mile My understanding is most home chargers run at 7KWH or so looking at electricity costs and ignoring the likes of octopus GO most are charging 15P or so per KWH that's approximately £1 per hour so 3.3P per mile. my old Peugeot diesel does 60MPG on average at £1.30 to the litre so approximately 10P per mile. we need to remember also that as more power is used overnight to charge vehicles then the ups and downs of the demand curve will flatten and so prices will go up I read another article saying by 2035 people won't own cars etc as we will all be within 5 minutes walk of a bus stop that will conveniently get us where we want to go again correspondents that live on a different planet. No i'm not anti green, but i am a realist
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Mike
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Post by Mike on Jun 11, 2021 13:06:01 GMT
How efficient would using EVs as distributed storage be? Batteries are DC, mains is AC - 'perfect' one-way conversion (which this wont be) is about 95% efficient; plus the inefficiencies associated with going in and out of the car I would predict you're looking at something quite ropey. So the FIT would need to be pretty good to get EV owners on board with that, even before cost & wear of hardware
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