ptr120
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Post by ptr120 on Jun 17, 2021 9:51:08 GMT
Just looking at buying a house, 5 bed Detached, it has air source heat pump. The electricity bill averaged over the last year in excess of £100.00p a week! I'd look at the energy efficiency rating for the property, and perhaps also the electricity tariff that the current occupant is on. With a figure like that it would suggest that both are not not the best.
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Post by mfaxford on Jun 17, 2021 9:53:00 GMT
... But their excuse for triads is it reduces the need to spend on infrastructure, which implies to me that they should be spending on it now. They're allowed by law to do this only so many times a year and it's normally on cold damp days in winter. I'm not aware of any last year but there was at least one this yr.
What I couldn't see quickly and would want to know is how much extra capacity would be required and how often is there a risk of going over capacity if we didn't have some control in place via triads. It might also be interesting to know how industries forecasting compares to when the actual peaks would be. From how the triads appear to work it seems the potential for going over capacity could range from a few hours to several days/weeks in terms of how the triads are calculated. As any peaks within 10 days of an existing triad are ignored it seems like a triad could cover anything between 30 minutes and 10 days. If it were only 10% extra capacity required to cover those peaks and the peaks covered a couple of weeks then I'd agree they should be investing in infrastructure rather than forcing industry to reduce it's usage. If we needed to double capacity to cover all usage during those peaks and there were only a few short periods where there's a risk of going over the current capacity is it really worth that added cost which we're likely all going to end up paying in our bills ? Ultimately smarter grids and metering can help some of this. For many of us it wouldn't matter at what point in a 12 hour period our cars were charged just as long as there's enough charge in the morning. The same would apply for immersion and storage heaters.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2021 11:20:04 GMT
From EDF's web site
"It costs about 4.6p per kilowatt hour (kWh) to heat a home with gas. And it’s about 9-16p per kWh using standard electric heaters[10]. A typical air source heat pump might cost about 4.7p per kWh to run. But if you use cheap-rate Economy 7 electricity or an GoElec tariff this could be as low as 2.3p[11]!
Energy prices vary – and our homes and use patterns differ too. So it’s hard to give an exact figure for how much money you could save in a year. But, based on some industry-wide figures, we’ve put together this example:
A modern four-bedroom house might need about 19,000kWh of heat per year[12]. This would cost around £874 in gas[13]. Using an air source heat pump and electricity priced at 16p per kWh the cost would be almost identical[14]. However, even if you did only half of your heating overnight – using the cheapest cheap-rate electricity – you could save 25%[15]: about £215.
The savings increase when you consider hot water. On average, a four-person household uses about 160 litres a day[16]. This requires about another 2,800kWh per year[17]. Using a 90% efficient gas boiler that’s another £129. But if you got all your hot water from an air source heat pump powered by cheap-rate electricity, you might only pay £65[18]."
Just as a guide a sensible large house with a trad system would cost about £1700 to £2000 to provide with energy
So if this house is looking at £100 a week that is £5200 a year which suggests that one the swimming pool is badly insulated, the house is badly insulated, the windows are often open and the canabis plants are doing very very well.
A friend of ours bought a house recently to discover that it had no insulation at all either in the roof space or in the walls (the previous owner had had it removed because he didn't believe in it). Even that had only been clocking up £4k a year.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 18, 2021 9:06:01 GMT
A friend of ours bought a house recently to discover that it had no insulation at all either in the roof space or in the walls (the previous owner had had it removed because he didn't believe in it).
Does the previous owner post here? I can take a good guess or two at his user name.
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Post by Ton ⓉⓞⓃ on Jun 18, 2021 20:11:43 GMT
... But their excuse for triads is it reduces the need to spend on infrastructure, which implies to me that they should be spending on it now. They're allowed by law to do this only so many times a year and it's normally on cold damp days in winter. I'm not aware of any last year but there was at least one this yr.
What I couldn't see quickly and would want to know is how much extra capacity would be required and how often is there a risk of going over capacity if we didn't have some control in place via triads. It might also be interesting to know how industries forecasting compares to when the actual peaks would be. From how the triads appear to work it seems the potential for going over capacity could range from a few hours to several days/weeks in terms of how the triads are calculated. As any peaks within 10 days of an existing triad are ignored it seems like a triad could cover anything between 30 minutes and 10 days. If it were only 10% extra capacity required to cover those peaks and the peaks covered a couple of weeks then I'd agree they should be investing in infrastructure rather than forcing industry to reduce it's usage. If we needed to double capacity to cover all usage during those peaks and there were only a few short periods where there's a risk of going over the current capacity is it really worth that added cost which we're likely all going to end up paying in our bills ? Ultimately smarter grids and metering can help some of this. For many of us it wouldn't matter at what point in a 12 hour period our cars were charged just as long as there's enough charge in the morning. The same would apply for immersion and storage heaters.
I don't fully understand them myself, but AFAIK triads take place with relatively short notice and then may not happen as predicted (not very helpful). I've only ever heard them occurring for half hour periods (only those on half hour metering get triads). By law only a set number of triads are allowed each year, so the company tends not to waste them, but they hope businesses switch things off and leave them off for longer I guess. We had a triad in the Wembley today around 11.45am, though many seem to take place at the end of the working day, sometime from 4pm to 6pm for the usual half hour. Some have suggested that it's just the leccy company trying to make a bit of extra money under the guise of efficiency. This might just be the case but I feel it's 98% trying to stop brownouts etc.
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keitha
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2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
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Post by keitha on Jun 18, 2021 20:31:37 GMT
From EDF's web site
"It costs about 4.6p per kilowatt hour (kWh) to heat a home with gas. And it’s about 9-16p per kWh using standard electric heaters[10]. A typical air source heat pump might cost about 4.7p per kWh to run. But if you use cheap-rate Economy 7 electricity or an GoElec tariff this could be as low as 2.3p[11]!
So if this house is looking at £100 a week that is £5200 a year which suggests that one the swimming pool is badly insulated, the house is badly insulated, the windows are often open and the canabis plants are doing very very well.
A friend of ours bought a house recently to discover that it had no insulation at all either in the roof space or in the walls (the previous owner had had it removed because he didn't believe in it). Even that had only been clocking up £4k a year.
typical EDF carp. I pay 2.71P per KWH for gas assuming my boiler is 90% efficient that's still 3P a unit so 1/3 less than EDF figures. I have a friend with a pretty well insulated house that has gas heating. She manages to run through £200 of electricity per month. At £100 a week were they charging an EV, or a or a power hungry hobby such as a pottery Kiln
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Post by mfaxford on Jun 19, 2021 8:58:01 GMT
I don't fully understand them myself, but AFAIK triads take place with relatively short notice and then may not happen as predicted (not very helpful). I've only ever heard them occurring for half hour periods (only those on half hour metering get triads). By law only a set number of triads are allowed each year, so the company tends not to waste them, but they hope businesses switch things off and leave them off for longer I guess. We had a triad in the Wembley today around 11.45am, though many seem to take place at the end of the working day, sometime from 4pm to 6pm for the usual half hour. Some have suggested that it's just the leccy company trying to make a bit of extra money under the guise of efficiency. This might just be the case but I feel it's 98% trying to stop brownouts etc.
I think my understanding in my previous post was slightly off as well. From another read I think that some customers (I assume high power users) are metered in half hour blocks, but the charging is biased towards the three times of highest demand (the triads) and I assume the wholesale costs at those times. So if the customer can guess when those periods of peak demand will be and reduce their usage they can reduce their costs. I'd imagine that they'll forecast more than three periods when the triads occur so could end up reducing their use over more of the peaks. The way the triads appear to be calculated looks to mean they might not all be the highest peaks. If you had a week with high demand between 4pm and 7pm you'll only get a triad for the highest 30m block in that period. The next triad would be the highest peak at least 10 days away from the first one (so might be a lower peak than some others near the first peak). I can see it's potentially a good way for them to persuade high use customers to reduce their usage when the demand might be greatest and so reduce the need to increase capacity. Although in terms of determining what capacity is needed the triads for billing don't seem to be so useful.
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