adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 14, 2021 9:39:53 GMT
In the UK context hungry children doesn't mean starving emaciated children, it means children going to bed feeling hungry, then not getting a proper breakfast and arriving at school hungry with school lunch being the best meal of the day. Marcus Rashford was one of those children, according to him he and his brothers and sisters were often hungry, his mother did her best (she worked hard and I don't think she is a drinker or a smoker!), but there wasn't enough food to go round, that is why he is so concerned about child poverty and making sure children get enough food, especially when children were not in school during the pandemic and many were therefore missing their only substantial meal of the day. I have great respect for Rashford, but I wonder if his own circumstances stand scrutiny. His father did a runner and left his wife to raise a family as a lone parent. Despite having a low paid job his mother thought it appropriate to have 5 children.
Looks like many of the famlies problems were self inflicted.
Umm, he's the youngest of those five full siblings, and his father left after his birth... His only half-sibling is a younger sister by his father (who is his agent). Perhaps his mother's christianity is of one of the flavours that wags a finger at contraception?
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jul 14, 2021 10:20:31 GMT
In the UK context hungry children doesn't mean starving emaciated children, it means children going to bed feeling hungry, then not getting a proper breakfast and arriving at school hungry with school lunch being the best meal of the day. Marcus Rashford was one of those children, according to him he and his brothers and sisters were often hungry, his mother did her best (she worked hard and I don't think she is a drinker or a smoker!), but there wasn't enough food to go round, that is why he is so concerned about child poverty and making sure children get enough food, especially when children were not in school during the pandemic and many were therefore missing their only substantial meal of the day. I have great respect for Rashford, but I wonder if his own circumstances stand scrutiny. His father did a runner and left his wife to raise a family as a lone parent. Despite having a low paid job his mother thought it appropriate to have 5 children.
Looks like many of the famlies problems were self inflicted.
Self inflicted or not, the question is should children go hungry? I'm sure his mother wasn't expecting to find herself a lone parent of five, if I wanted to cast blame I would go after her husband who left his children in that position.
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Post by bernythedolt on Jul 14, 2021 10:52:50 GMT
"I got my first tattoo when I was 18 (no baby, in work) and continued spending my wages on my tattoos until I didn't have wages to spend on them any more. I did not spend my "benefit money" on tattoos. End of. I do still have them, because tattoos are permanent, so even when you're freezing and starving you can't sell them for a bit of cash." - www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/01/richard-littlejohn-wrong-about-jack-monroe-daily-mailStrange set of priorities. Some of us save it for a rainy day, and to feed our future children, instead of peeing it all up the wall on mindless tattoos, an iPhone and other tat, as she did. You certainly wouldn't give up your job, as she did, until you'd saved up a pot to tide you over until the next job. What does it tell you, that her fire service employer would not consider her for a sideways move (with more suitable hours for a single mother) anywhere else in the service? Probably glad to see the back of her. To add to the two previous comments (from starfished and @greewnwood2) have you considered how difficult it can be if you find yourself living off minimum wage or benefits. After the expenses of rent, council tax, essential bills, food you might not have much left over for saving or a few small pleasures from a 40+ hour week at work. At that point things like hire purchase and mobile contracts can look a better deal as you don't have the money (and wont save it quickly) to buy something outright (even if that might be cheaper in the long term). If you are right on the breadline, a mobile phone contract is a luxury not an essential. Cheap PAYG phones are available if you really can't live without one. To her credit, she did do that. No, I didn't miss it. It was so obviously trumped by "I continued spending my wages on my tattoos until I didn't have wages to spend on them any more" that it wasn't relevant. The mantra of the entitled generation. What about personal responsibility? She should have been saving in the good times for the rainy days to come. If she didn't bother, don't come crying to the rest of us about insufficient money for food. But this is just one individual here, a known left-wing activist. My point was, unless we're seeing pictures of emaciated children (and none of us want to or expect to), this notion of hungry children in the UK is highly exaggerated. The much bigger problem is nutritionally-uneducated parents feeding their offspring so much junk, and not taking enough exercise together.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 14, 2021 14:28:15 GMT
But this is just one individual here, a known left-wing activist. My point was, unless we're seeing pictures of emaciated children (and none of us want to or expect to), this notion of hungry children in the UK is highly exaggerated. Thank you for the confirmation that you're prioritising your political comfort zone over an inconvenient reality. You do realise that you've just accused UNICEF and Human Rights Watch of lying, because you don't like the politics of one person who's been raising this as an issue for a decade? So I wonder if you could clarify... If helping feed somebody's children even if they've made what you perceive to be poor life choices in the past is out, should those children be left to starve, be taken into care, or simply put down? Because I'm not sure what the other options are? If you are right on the breadline, a mobile phone contract is a luxury not an essential. Cheap PAYG phones are available if you really can't live without one. How does somebody apply for jobs with no phone or internet?
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toffeeboy
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Post by toffeeboy on Jul 14, 2021 15:30:26 GMT
But this is just one individual here, a known left-wing activist. My point was, unless we're seeing pictures of emaciated children (and none of us want to or expect to), this notion of hungry children in the UK is highly exaggerated. Thank you for the confirmation that you're prioritising your political comfort zone over an inconvenient reality. You do realise that you've just accused UNICEF and Human Rights Watch of lying, because you don't like the politics of one person who's been raising this as an issue for a decade? So I wonder if you could clarify... If helping feed somebody's children even if they've made what you perceive to be poor life choices in the past is out, should those children be left to starve, be taken into care, or simply put down? Because I'm not sure what the other options are? If you are right on the breadline, a mobile phone contract is a luxury not an essential. Cheap PAYG phones are available if you really can't live without one. How does somebody apply for jobs with no phone or internet? Luckily it has been a while since I went in one but don't job centres help you apply for jobs, failing that a Library. When I had no money I went without, I know plenty of people who put it on the never never and are still paying for it now. Basic money management and budgetiing should be taught in schools, too many people around now who aren't bothered because they know others will pay for them. Said for a long time that dole should be paid out in food vouchers not money, I used to know a lot of people who treated dole day as pay day. They repaid their debts and got hammered on whatever was left with no thought as to how they were going to live until the next dole day. Now we have a generation of kids who have watched mum/dad doing this so think this is the norm and will no doubt follow in their parents footsteps.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jul 14, 2021 17:18:17 GMT
Luckily it has been a while since I went in one but don't job centres help you apply for jobs, failing that a Library. When I had no money I went without, I know plenty of people who put it on the never never and are still paying for it now. Basic money management and budgetiing should be taught in schools, too many people around now who aren't bothered because they know others will pay for them. Said for a long time that dole should be paid out in food vouchers not money, I used to know a lot of people who treated dole day as pay day. They repaid their debts and got hammered on whatever was left with no thought as to how they were going to live until the next dole day. Now we have a generation of kids who have watched mum/dad doing this so think this is the norm and will no doubt follow in their parents footsteps. Many years ago I worked on a construction site near Exeter prison. I knew most of the subcontractors on site and one asked if it was ok to leave early as he wanted to go round to see his brother who had just brought a brand new sabru impreza.
I knew that his brother worked on a builing site earning not much more than minimum wage, so I asked how he was paying for the car. The subcontractor said his brother was borrowing the money. When I asked how he was going to repay the loan he looked at me with a look of amazement and said 'he's only doing the same as everyone else'
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Post by mfaxford on Jul 14, 2021 17:20:16 GMT
How does somebody apply for jobs with no phone or internet? Luckily it has been a while since I went in one but don't job centres help you apply for jobs, failing that a Library. When I had occasion to use one they didn't do much to help other than complain if you hadn't applied for at least 7 jobs every week (checked fortnightly) and threaten to sanction you if they felt you hadn't done enough. The one time I was threatened with being sanctioned so wouldn't get any JSA payments for several weeks (could be up to 6 weeks from memory) I did have to point out I didn't get anything as it was (due to circumstances). What I wanted was actual support in finding employment what I got was a 5 minute (if I was lucky) appointment with someone random every 2 weeks and plenty of stress, the only thing I gained was that it covers NI contributions for that period (In hindsight I may have done better to pay to top up that NI if needed). There might have been some facility for searching / applying for jobs although it didn't feel like an environment I'd want to work in much if there was any way not to.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jul 14, 2021 17:44:43 GMT
Thank you for the confirmation that you're prioritising your political comfort zone over an inconvenient reality. You do realise that you've just accused UNICEF and Human Rights Watch of lying, because you don't like the politics of one person who's been raising this as an issue for a decade? So I wonder if you could clarify... If helping feed somebody's children even if they've made what you perceive to be poor life choices in the past is out, should those children be left to starve, be taken into care, or simply put down? Because I'm not sure what the other options are? How does somebody apply for jobs with no phone or internet? Luckily it has been a while since I went in one but don't job centres help you apply for jobs, failing that a Library. When I had no money I went without, I know plenty of people who put it on the never never and are still paying for it now. Basic money management and budgetiing should be taught in schools, too many people around now who aren't bothered because they know others will pay for them. Said for a long time that dole should be paid out in food vouchers not money, I used to know a lot of people who treated dole day as pay day. They repaid their debts and got hammered on whatever was left with no thought as to how they were going to live until the next dole day. Now we have a generation of kids who have watched mum/dad doing this so think this is the norm and will no doubt follow in their parents footsteps. We are all living in Ivory Towers. I do remember when I was first married we were pretty strapped for cash but just got by literally nothing left at the end of the month. My mother was pretty poor after my father died, not that she hadn't worked all of her life from 14 to when she died at 70! But I remember my brother coming home (as a new graduate on a year out) with a couple of French friends he had invited to stay and my mother saying to me I can't afford to feed them, fortunately I was working and could give her some money to tied her over, one of the 'boys' did apologise for having no money to give her for his keep (nice boy). We take it for granted that we can afford a good lifestyle and the idea that we would send our children or grandchildren to bed hungry is inconceivable, but some nice ordinary people are not able to give their children enough food and they do go to bed hungry it seems impossible but it is still happening. I do also wonder if the people decrying poor people resorting to alcohol or worse realise how depressing it may be living like that day after day, week after week. Many of us probably have a glass or two with far less serious problems in our lives. And yes there are some who abuse the system and I don't know what you do about that.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jul 14, 2021 18:18:21 GMT
Said for a long time that dole should be paid out in food vouchers not money I grant you it's a superficially attractive idea. At least until you need to pay the gas bill, the electric, the water, council tax, get your kids a new pair of shoes, a TV license, a bus ticket...
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 14, 2021 19:10:15 GMT
I remember libraries... Just.
Anyway, one of my nearest small towns has just had a big surge in positives over the last few days. It appears to have been centred on those who watched the football in... The Conservative Club.
Oops.
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Post by bernythedolt on Jul 15, 2021 10:05:44 GMT
But this is just one individual here, a known left-wing activist. My point was, unless we're seeing pictures of emaciated children (and none of us want to or expect to), this notion of hungry children in the UK is highly exaggerated. Thank you for the confirmation that you're prioritising your political comfort zone over an inconvenient reality. You do realise that you've just accused UNICEF and Human Rights Watch of lying, because you don't like the politics of one person who's been raising this as an issue for a decade? So I wonder if you could clarify... If helping feed somebody's children even if they've made what you perceive to be poor life choices in the past is out, should those children be left to starve, be taken into care, or simply put down? Because I'm not sure what the other options are? If you are right on the breadline, a mobile phone contract is a luxury not an essential. Cheap PAYG phones are available if you really can't live without one. How does somebody apply for jobs with no phone or internet? Left to starve? Let's put the Victorian age melodrama to one side, because we are no longer talking about starving children in the UK. Luckily we have a basic welfare safety net which ensures that is not the case. I grew up in relative poverty and I do know what going to bed feeling a bit hungry feels like, but we also had the heart-rending pictures coming in from famines like Biafra at that time, so I learned to count my blessings. Feeling a little hungry and starving are poles apart. If there is genuinely a problem, then the answer must be for some cash benefits to be replaced by food vouchers, as toffeeboy mentions above... with it being made illegal to exchange them for tobacco or alcohol.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 15, 2021 11:31:41 GMT
Left to starve? Let's put the Victorian age melodrama to one side, because we are no longer talking about starving children in the UK. Luckily we have a basic welfare safety net which ensures that is not the case. Umm, that's kinda the whole point... People are falling through that net. But you've dismissed the UNICEF and HRW reports that show that. Perhaps you won't be so quick to dismiss the government's own Children's Commissioner? www.childrenscommissioner.gov.uk/report/child-poverty/
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jonno
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Post by jonno on Jul 15, 2021 11:46:15 GMT
I've just caught myself wondering what a day in the life of adrianc must be like. Living in Britain for you must be the most astonishingly dystopian, miserable,eye-wateringly depressing experience imaginable. Is there anything good, reasonable or even tolerable about living here? If not, why on earth don't you throw your hand in and find a place that fulfils your aspirations? (Please don't take this as a "well if you don't like it here, piss off somewhere else" caricature; I ask this out of best intention, as I'm genuinely interested)
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toffeeboy
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Post by toffeeboy on Jul 15, 2021 12:02:00 GMT
Left to starve? Let's put the Victorian age melodrama to one side, because we are no longer talking about starving children in the UK. Luckily we have a basic welfare safety net which ensures that is not the case. Umm, that's kinda the whole point... People are falling through that net. But you've dismissed the UNICEF and HRW reports that show that. Perhaps you won't be so quick to dismiss the government's own Children's Commissioner? www.childrenscommissioner.gov.uk/report/child-poverty/Correct me if i am wrong but aren't parents given money by the government to help raise their first two children (£21 first and £14 second) so how can any child not be given enough food? This is on top of other benefits that are given out if the parents are unemployed or in low income jobs to assist them. The system is there to provide them with plenty of support without the need for UNICEF or other charities to be involved, there are plenty of children around the world that need their help alot more than anyone in the UK. Any child starving in the UK is down to the parent not the lack of support available.
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JamesFrance
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Post by JamesFrance on Jul 15, 2021 14:38:11 GMT
There are thousands more given to those who are low earners as tax credits for each child (unless they have ignored the 2 child cap introduced to try to discourage professional breeders). Here is the list of all the child subsidies available, which I would have thought would have fed them really well if they were spent on the kids.
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