Godanubis
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Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
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Post by Godanubis on Jul 24, 2021 20:56:48 GMT
Hi unions are calling for 4% min rise in England to match Scotland. That sounds fair ….IT is not Scottish NHS staff pay at least 1% more in income tax and mid range nurses on higher salaries have not had any increase in tax free allowances for several years. This results in giving considerably reduced money as more goes to tax man. This results that a mid range nurse and most laboratory scientists etc get less than counterparts in England I would imagine that most Scottish staff with 4% rise still takes home less than English staff.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jul 24, 2021 21:19:05 GMT
Hi unions are calling for 4% min rise in England to match Scotland. That sounds fair ….IT is not Scottish NHS staff pay at least 1% more in income tax and mid range nurses on higher salaries have not had any increase in tax free allowances for several years. This results in giving considerably reduced money as more goes to tax man. This results that a mid range nurse and most laboratory scientists etc get less than counterparts in England I would imagine that most Scottish staff with 4% rise still takes home less than English staff. Last time I heard this mentioned on TV the unions were demanding 12 - 15%. Also I believe that the Labour administration in Wales are also offering 3%.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2021 21:56:35 GMT
Probably not a popular view. But the queue to read nursing at university is growing deeper yet is being satisfied by increases in courses, while the queue to become a doctor continues to be restrained by the doctor's union as courses are not growing.
Hence we keep sucking doctors and nurses out of third world countries.
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Godanubis
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Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
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Post by Godanubis on Jul 24, 2021 23:07:38 GMT
Probably not a popular view. But the queue to read nursing at university is growing deeper yet is being satisfied by increases in courses, while the queue to become a doctor continues to be restrained by the doctor's union as courses are not growing. Hence we keep sucking doctors and nurses out of third world countries. Personally I think 3% is more than fair as it arose from independent consideration without emotion associated with NHS when others worked just as hard. I worked for Health care in NHS and in a war zone in Gulf war. It was my job for over 44 years .Labour sees everybody as hard working… It is just working. Jobs are different you choose for whatever reason some days may be easier than others and some more of an effort. As a Scientist I was once asked at a clinic to help out sending patients to my colleagues to be tested as nurse was unavailable. I made a complete mess and found it stressful. Others found this much less stressful than our usual testing etc. Difficulty is perceived from different positions so cannot be arbitrarily classed as “Hard” . Independent judgment as to value and renumeration based on comparative professions is the only fair means of assessment. NHS agenda for change years ago resulted in very good employment conditions and benefits for all staff far better than most private companies in all occupations cleaners, porters , plumbers, electricians and clinical staff . I thank everyone from the toilet cleaners at vaccine producers to the people disposing of our waste at landfill for without everyone working when possible civilisation would collapse.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jul 25, 2021 7:39:30 GMT
Also probably not a popular view but...
the context in which a the current rise is being considered is one where millions were put on furlough for either shortish or long periods on reduced pay; others have permanently lost their jobs and will have had periods of unemployment if they were lucky enough to find new ones; others have lost jobs and not yet found new ones or will have gone into earlier than planned 'retirement'; many of those impacted have been some of the lowest paid workers working in for example hospitality, and indeed in this case many of those are also the youngest part of the workforce who are likely to bear the biggest financial brunt of national debt servicing over the next 15-20-25 years. It's easy to garner the sympathy vote for NHS staff when they have been in the front line for the last 18 months, but lets not forget that from a financial and job perspective many people have had a torrid time and have had permanent losses they won't recover. And there are others who have also been in the front line but in different ways: anyone remember the appalling rate of infection for London bus drivers ? What about Police being regularly spat at and having to deal with obnoxious relatively high risk crowds ? Or supermarket workers before face mask wearing was introduced ?
And then of course there are the business owners who have been through a pretty terrible time; many have seen their businesses permanently sink, while hundreds of thousands have had to deal with the very real risk of their business sinking and taking them down with them. Rather than 'having a payrise', these people will be daunted by the weight of debt they now have which will ultimately need to be paid off.
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on Jul 25, 2021 14:45:02 GMT
Probably not a popular view. But the queue to read nursing at university is growing deeper yet is being satisfied by increases in courses, while the queue to become a doctor continues to be restrained by the doctor's union as courses are not growing. Hence we keep sucking doctors and nurses out of third world countries. It’s nothing to do with doctors. Our unions have been calling on the government to train more doctors for decades, and now we have widespread shortages. Couple that with government policy making it sensible for many senior doctors to retire many years earlier than they otherwise would have and it’s a double edged sword.
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on Jul 25, 2021 14:48:06 GMT
Also probably not a popular view but... the context in which a the current rise is being considered is one where millions were put on furlough for either shortish or long periods on reduced pay; others have permanently lost their jobs and will have had periods of unemployment if they were lucky enough to find new ones; others have lost jobs and not yet found new ones or will have gone into earlier than planned 'retirement'; many of those impacted have been some of the lowest paid workers working in for example hospitality, and indeed in this case many of those are also the youngest part of the workforce who are likely to bear the biggest financial brunt of national debt servicing over the next 15-20-25 years. It's easy to garner the sympathy vote for NHS staff when they have been in the front line for the last 18 months, but lets not forget that from a financial and job perspective many people have had a torrid time and have had permanent losses they won't recover. And there are others who have also been in the front line but in different ways: anyone remember the appalling rate of infection for London bus drivers ? What about Police being regularly spat at and having to deal with obnoxious relatively high risk crowds ? Or supermarket workers before face mask wearing was introduced ? And then of course there are the business owners who have been through a pretty terrible time; many have seen their businesses permanently sink, while hundreds of thousands have had to deal with the very real risk of their business sinking and taking them down with them. Rather than 'having a payrise', these people will be daunted by the weight of debt they now have which will ultimately need to be paid off. It’s not a race to the bottom. Personally I don’t think being on 80% furlough to sit at home for 18 months when during a period of reduced living costs should be seen as comparable to working at the front line for 18 months though.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jul 25, 2021 15:46:49 GMT
It’s not a race to the bottom. Personally I don’t think being on 80% furlough to sit at home for 18 months when during a period of reduced living costs should be seen as comparable to working at the front line for 18 months though.It should be pointed out of course that ALL pay is ALWAYS relative, regardless of the comment about it not being a race to the bottom. I'm sure there are some people who were happy to be paid 80% to sit at home for 18 months. However I think that comment shows a bit of a dislocation from the reality for many many people. Many people with families and mortgages, or rents, are not on high enough earnings that the missing 20% of their salary is something they can just shrug their shoulders at it being a trade off to sit on their backsides for a period. Many, and particularly perhaps at the younger end of the spectrum, would already have been financially strained, and those lost earnings would have translated into mortgage and rent arrears, or perhaps significantly depleted savings for those more fortunate. They may have been saved from eviction from rental properties, or having their mortgages called in, but the costs of that have not gone away, just built up as increased debt.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2021 16:33:35 GMT
Probably not a popular view. But the queue to read nursing at university is growing deeper yet is being satisfied by increases in courses, while the queue to become a doctor continues to be restrained by the doctor's union as courses are not growing. Hence we keep sucking doctors and nurses out of third world countries. It’s nothing to do with doctors. Our unions have been calling on the government to train more doctors for decades, and now we have widespread shortages. Couple that with government policy making it sensible for many senior doctors to retire many years earlier than they otherwise would have and it’s a double edged sword. www.medschools.ac.uk/our-work/selection/selecting-for-excellence
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 25, 2021 16:54:44 GMT
It’s nothing to do with doctors. Our unions have been calling on the government to train more doctors for decades, and now we have widespread shortages. Couple that with government policy making it sensible for many senior doctors to retire many years earlier than they otherwise would have and it’s a double edged sword. www.medschools.ac.uk/our-work/selection/selecting-for-excellenceI don't agree that doctors need to show significantly more academic promise at ages 16-18 than any other scientific discipline. We could trivially relax entry requirements from an A* to an A here and there to produce the numbers needed. Have the doctors that the NHS obtains from abroad all been through such a rigorous admissions process ? Or have any of them rich parents that paid their way through med school? Finally do they all speak english natively as that is essential to communicate with patients (both directly and to adopt a reassuring manner) and presumably other medical staff in high stress situations.
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on Jul 25, 2021 18:02:43 GMT
It’s nothing to do with doctors. Our unions have been calling on the government to train more doctors for decades, and now we have widespread shortages. Couple that with government policy making it sensible for many senior doctors to retire many years earlier than they otherwise would have and it’s a double edged sword. www.medschools.ac.uk/our-work/selection/selecting-for-excellenceWhat’s that got to do with doctors and their unions?
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on Jul 25, 2021 18:07:14 GMT
I don't agree that doctors need to show significantly more academic promise at ages 16-18 than any other scientific discipline. We could trivially relax entry requirements from an A* to an A here and there to produce the numbers needed. Have the doctors that the NHS obtains from abroad all been through such a rigorous admissions process ? Or have any of them rich parents that paid their way through med school? Finally do they all speak english natively as that is essential to communicate with patients (both directly and to adopt a reassuring manner) and presumably other medical staff in high stress situations. All NHS doctors from abroad are fluent in English and as have to pass further stringent entry tests if they have trained in certain countries. The NHS relies on foreign trained doctors. Not sure what you mean by entry requirements. Medical school is pretty tough academically, but not as hard as some other science based courses.
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daveb
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Post by daveb on Jul 25, 2021 18:32:21 GMT
Pay rises in the NHS aren't about what staff "deserve." They are about staff retention. We are leaking huge numbers of doctors overseas- at the end of the first 2 years of foundation training, only about half apply into speciality training. If they stay in the UK they don't have to work directly for the NHS, they can work as a locum on a much bigger salary. Driving doctors out of direct employment to coin it in as locums is bonkers. A low pay rise is counter-productive.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 25, 2021 19:19:53 GMT
I don't agree that doctors need to show significantly more academic promise at ages 16-18 than any other scientific discipline. We could trivially relax entry requirements from an A* to an A here and there to produce the numbers needed. Have the doctors that the NHS obtains from abroad all been through such a rigorous admissions process ? Or have any of them rich parents that paid their way through med school? Finally do they all speak english natively as that is essential to communicate with patients (both directly and to adopt a reassuring manner) and presumably other medical staff in high stress situations. All NHS doctors from abroad are fluent in English and as have to pass further stringent entry tests if they have trained in certain countries. The NHS relies on foreign trained doctors.Not sure what you mean by entry requirements. Medical school is pretty tough academically, but not as hard as some other science based courses. Yes it does and that is unfortunate don't you think? Probably not great either for the countries they have emigrated from either who have invested in educating new doctors only to see them leaving for the UK. Fluency not as good communication as native. Med school in the UK is too hard to get into as funding is only available for too few docs.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2021 19:22:28 GMT
What’s that got to do with doctors and their unions? And that is the point.
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