michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 27, 2021 21:03:23 GMT
This was new to me. Clearly not the honourable thing to do. Does something similar apply if the women falsely claims to be on the pill? In either case, how can it possibly be compared to murder when considering the punishment ? www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-57618003
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Post by bracknellboy on Jul 27, 2021 21:13:10 GMT
This was new to me. Clearly not the honourable thing to do. Does something similar apply if the women falsely claims to be on the pill? In either case, how can it possibly be compared to murder when considering the punishment ? www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-57618003where does 'murder' come in to it ? The article is about the fact that it is legally considered rape.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 27, 2021 23:11:17 GMT
This was new to me. Clearly not the honourable thing to do. Does something similar apply if the women falsely claims to be on the pill? In either case, how can it possibly be compared to murder when considering the punishment ? www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-57618003 where does 'murder' come in to it ? The article is about the fact that it is legally considered rape. Punishment
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Post by bracknellboy on Jul 28, 2021 7:13:18 GMT
where does 'murder' come in to it ? The article is about the fact that it is legally considered rape. Punishment we must be reading the article through different glasses. I've looked through it several times: there is no mention of murder in the article, no mention of sentence, no mention of punishment. And that is checking using good old Ctrl-F as well. So I'm at a loss to know how you are interpreting anyone comparing it to murder within the article itself.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 28, 2021 7:26:18 GMT
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corto
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Post by corto on Jul 28, 2021 8:20:38 GMT
If a woman pretends use of contraceptives that would of course matter in a legal case that may come out of this.
However, the burden of the consequences are distributed asymmetrically - the man can just walk away, the woman has to carry it away.
But michealc may have a point. There are women that want a child and use the option.
Still, the consequences for the man will be minor (usually); the incidence of actively forgetting the rubber is probably much higher; and the reasons for doing the latter also seem dubious compared to wanting a child.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jul 28, 2021 8:30:49 GMT
This was new to me. Clearly not the honourable thing to do. Does something similar apply if the women falsely claims to be on the pill? In either case, how can it possibly be compared to murder when considering the punishment ? www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-57618003A bit worse than that. It could well be a life changing act if the man passes on a nasty disease like Aids, syphilis or other STDs or it results in an unwanted pregnancy with all the risks involved and the possibility of single parenthood. And I suspect in most cases it would be impossible to prove unless the man admitted it. I believe someone did get a relatively harsh sentence for deliberately passing on Aids by having unprotected sex with multiple partners when he knew he had Aids. I don't know if the victims agreed to unprotected sex in those cases (they didn't know he had Aids).
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 28, 2021 8:33:33 GMT
If a woman pretends use of contraceptives that would of course matter in a legal case that may come out of this. But it would not - cannot - be rape, not in the UK. Rape is strictly defined in UK law, and requires non-consensual insertion of a penis. No more, no less. Anything else would "just" be sexual assault. In the case Greenwood2 refers to, the charge was GBH. www.cps.gov.uk/wessex/news/man-jailed-8-years-after-infecting-women-hiv
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corto
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Post by corto on Jul 28, 2021 8:37:52 GMT
If a woman pretends use of contraceptives that would of course matter in a legal case that may come out of this. But it would not - cannot - be rape, not in the UK. Rape is strictly defined in UK law, and requires non-consensual insertion of a penis. No more, no less. Anything else would "just" be sexual assault. In the case Greenwood2 refers to, the charge was GBH. www.cps.gov.uk/wessex/news/man-jailed-8-years-after-infecting-women-hivA penis was inserted, but would it have been if the man had known?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 28, 2021 8:53:23 GMT
A penis was inserted, but would it have been if the man had known? But not by the person who was misleading the conditional consent.
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corto
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Post by corto on Jul 28, 2021 9:09:16 GMT
A penis was inserted, but would it have been if the man had known? But not by the person who was misleading the conditional consent. Irrelevant I would say - maybe she even got on top. As there was consent the technicalities of how it was done don't matter. Looks entirely symmetric to me: In both cases there was a consent and a lie about the use of contraceptives. What differs are the reasons and the consequences.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jul 28, 2021 9:11:30 GMT
A penis was inserted, but would it have been if the man had known? But not by the person who was misleading the conditional consent. And the man knew he was having unprotected sex and was risking STDs even if he didn't know the full risk of becoming a father.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 28, 2021 9:32:09 GMT
But not by the person who was misleading the conditional consent. Irrelevant I would say Not when it comes to whether or not it's rape... A possessor of a penis is the only one who can rape. Otherwise, it's sexual assault.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 28, 2021 10:27:54 GMT
I must live on a differenet planet to everyone else. That's why I like this forum. Its pseudo anonymous chat allows me to see just how far away I am !
To me, rape is a terrible crime that should carry a range of sentences of many years. I don't believe it is as bad as murder though which carry the same maximum sentence. I would argue that in some cases sexual assault is worse than rape. For example, when a man is "raped" the act itself isn't something we are biologically designed for. Anyway, that's a sidetrack.
Now this latest twist of allowing a judge to give out the same punishment as s/he might do for murder for a crime which might consist only of not informing the partner whether or not you're wearing a condom is to me completely disproportionate. I don't understand how "we" (not me anymore) can live in a country were we say lying about a condom is as bad as killing someone in cold blood where there are no iffs and buts about what might or might not happen - the person has been murdered. I'm certainly not saying its ok to do it just how can it be equated to murder (or torture) ?
Note also that the argument about "giving HIV" is not relevant as it is already well covered. Someone infeected with HIV who knowingly infects a partner is likely already covered by manslaughter/murder laws.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 28, 2021 10:29:53 GMT
Before that sentence you actually brought some useful information to the debate. You need to move your apostrophe on a character though.
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