keitha
Member of DD Central
2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
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Post by keitha on Dec 6, 2021 10:41:05 GMT
Apparently she's upset that other prisoners have thrown salt al her and dumped salt in her food.
isn't Karma a bitch
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easynow
Member of DD Central
Popcorn anyone?
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Post by easynow on Dec 6, 2021 10:51:17 GMT
I think thats the least of her worries if i'm honest.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2021 12:06:50 GMT
just salt
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michaelc
Member of DD Central
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Post by michaelc on Dec 6, 2021 13:46:14 GMT
Life with 29 years minimum is too lenient IMO. Perhaps having 4 year old twins makes me more sensitive to this I don't know but this is one of those rare occasions I'd like to see her tortured to death very slowly.
Second point I have is about the inquiry. I hope it doesn't end up punishing the vast, vast majority of well intentioned parents. The babyP thing ended up with an enquiry and now there are lots of regulations which I think create a bit of a culture of fear among parents and professionals alike. Daft stuff like certain professionals not allowed to hug your child etc (or at least a strong reluctance to want to do so) in case they get accused of anything. I don't see why we can't be vigilent but also create a relaxed culture at the same time.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2021 13:55:17 GMT
Given that most molestation occurs within families by close family members (this is a good example) the introduction of a whole raft of legislation looking at what other adults do looks like classic "look over there" thinking.
Mrs Bobo recently had to do her full kiddy fiddling tests so she could teach adults the rudiments of making things. At what point does building walls in the wrong place ever get through to civil servants.
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Post by bracknellboy on Dec 6, 2021 16:15:01 GMT
Life with 29 years minimum is too lenient IMO. Perhaps having 4 year old twins makes me more sensitive to this I don't know but this is one of those rare occasions I'd like to see her tortured to death very slowly. Second point I have is about the inquiry. I hope it doesn't end up punishing the vast, vast majority of well intentioned parents. The babyP thing ended up with an enquiry and now there are lots of regulations which I think create a bit of a culture of fear among parents and professionals alike. Daft stuff like certain professionals not allowed to hug your child etc (or at least a strong reluctance to want to do so) in case they get accused of anything. I don't see why we can't be vigilent but also create a relaxed culture at the same time. I'm not sure whether 29 yrs is too lenient or not as I'm unclear on the sentencing guidelines: as I understand it the sentence is life sentence with a 29 year minimum term. So not eligible for release before 29 years and no certainty of being released at 29 years. I see that the minimum minimum term (so to speak) that can be given is 25 years, [so on that basis alone it does feel as if its light] EDIT: the 25 years is not the minimum; I thought it seemed wrong. One part of me shouts 'why was a whole life term not considered appropriate'. This was a case of murder of a very vulnerable young child and was preceded by a level of mistreatment and abuse that is appalling . I do think that the 21 years for the father seems particularly lenient: yes he was formally convicted of manslaughter not murder. But there is a significant degree of complicity, and the failure to remove his son from that environment itself tells us a lot. I see its reported that 'On one occasion before his death, Arthur told his father: “I am in danger with you, Dad.” '. Utterly heart breaking.
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adrianc
Member of DD Central
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Post by adrianc on Dec 6, 2021 16:32:47 GMT
I'm not sure whether 29 yrs is too lenient or not as I'm unclear on the sentencing guidelines: as I understand it the sentence is life sentence with a 29 year minimum term. So not eligible for release before 29 years and no certainty of being released at 29 years. Yup. They will only be released when the parole board believe they pose no risk to the public. Then they'll be released on life licence. Anybody breaching licence can be immediate recalled to prison on the slightest suspicion of any wrongdoing, no need for any trial - as with Colin Pitchfork the other week. And a life licence means that applies until the day they die. www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/sentencing-mandatory-life-sentences-murder-casesThere are four starting points for the tariff - whole life, 30yr, 25yr, 15yr. From that, it looks to me that a tariff only JUST below the 30yr line is perfectly appropriate. The case does not appear to fit either the tests for whole life or for 30yr, nor for the very limited 25yr, but is clearly FAR more serious than the 15yr starting point. Where the offender is 21 or over at the time of the offence and the court takes the view that the murder is so grave that the offender should spend the rest of their life in prison, a 'whole life order' is the appropriate starting point. Such an order should only be specified where the court considers that the seriousness of the offence is exceptionally high. Such cases include:
a) the murder of two or more persons where each murder involves a substantial degree of premeditation, the abduction of the victim, or sexual or sadistic conduct;
b) the murder of a child if involving the abduction of the child or sexual or sadistic motivation;
c) a murder done for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause; or
d) a murder by an offender previously convicted of murder.Where the offence is not so serious as to warrant a whole life order but the seriousness of the offence is particularly high the appropriate starting point is 30 years. The following examples are given:
a) the murder of a police or prison officer in the course of his duty;
b) a murder involving the use of a firearm or explosive;
c) a murder done for gain (in the course of a robbery or burglary, or done for payment);
d) a murder intended to obstruct or interfere with the course of justice;
e) a murder involving sexual or sadistic conduct;
f) the murder of two or more persons; or
g) a murder that is racially or religiously aggravated or aggravated by sexual orientation.
Where the offender the offender took a knife or other weapon to the scene intending to
(a) commit any offence, or
(b) have it available to use as a weapon,
and used that knife or other weapon in committing the murder the normal starting point is 25 years.
For all other offences the appropriate starting point is 15 years.
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michaelc
Member of DD Central
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Post by michaelc on Dec 6, 2021 17:07:12 GMT
Life with 29 years minimum is too lenient IMO. Perhaps having 4 year old twins makes me more sensitive to this I don't know but this is one of those rare occasions I'd like to see her tortured to death very slowly. Second point I have is about the inquiry. I hope it doesn't end up punishing the vast, vast majority of well intentioned parents. The babyP thing ended up with an enquiry and now there are lots of regulations which I think create a bit of a culture of fear among parents and professionals alike. Daft stuff like certain professionals not allowed to hug your child etc (or at least a strong reluctance to want to do so) in case they get accused of anything. I don't see why we can't be vigilent but also create a relaxed culture at the same time. I'm not sure whether 29 yrs is too lenient or not as I'm unclear on the sentencing guidelines: as I understand it the sentence is life sentence with a 29 year minimum term. So not eligible for release before 29 years and no certainty of being released at 29 years. I see that the minimum minimum term (so to speak) that can be given is 25 years, [so on that basis alone it does feel as if its light] EDIT: the 25 years is not the minimum; I thought it seemed wrong. One part of me shouts 'why was a whole life term not considered appropriate'. This was a case of murder of a very vulnerable young child and was preceded by a level of mistreatment and abuse that is appalling . I do think that the 21 years for the father seems particularly lenient: yes he was formally convicted of manslaughter not murder. But there is a significant degree of complicity, and the failure to remove his son from that environment itself tells us a lot. I see its reported that 'On one occasion before his death, Arthur told his father: “I am in danger with you, Dad.” '. Utterly heart breaking. Utterly. I wish I hadn't read that. As for sentencing I wasn't constraining myself to existing guidelines as they can be changed. I agree in general with what you say though.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Dec 6, 2021 17:56:03 GMT
What about the child's father, where was he? I would find him equally guilty by being totally oblivious, or turning a blind eye. It was his son and he should have protected him.
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Post by bracknellboy on Dec 6, 2021 18:08:11 GMT
What about the child's father, where was he? I would find him equally guilty by being totally oblivious, or turning a blind eye. It was his son and he should have protected him. Agreed. It is his sentence that looks particularly egregious. Though of course the fact that the offence tried for was Manslaughter brings its own sentencing constraints. I suspect the offence was Unlawful Act (of) Manslaughter ? In which case the top end is 24 years.
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michaelc
Member of DD Central
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Post by michaelc on Dec 6, 2021 18:31:35 GMT
What about the child's father, where was he? I would find him equally guilty by being totally oblivious, or turning a blind eye. It was his son and he should have protected him. Agreed. It is his sentence that looks particularly egregious. Though of course the fact that the offence tried for was Manslaughter brings its own sentencing constraints. I suspect the offence was Unlawful Act (of) Manslaughter ? In which case the top end is 24 years. Are there not offences like torture, complicity to torture or similar ?
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adrianc
Member of DD Central
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Post by adrianc on Dec 6, 2021 18:33:22 GMT
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Greenwood2
Member of DD Central
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Post by Greenwood2 on Dec 6, 2021 19:11:52 GMT
The law is an ass sometimes! He was the one that allowed it to happen and how did he chose this wonderful partner to help rear his child?
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adrianc
Member of DD Central
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Post by adrianc on Dec 6, 2021 19:23:29 GMT
The law is an ass sometimes! He was the one that allowed it to happen From that Sentencing Council blog explainer... "Unlawful act manslaughter is charged when death occurs due to a criminal act which a reasonable person would realise must subject some other person to at least the risk of some physical harm."That seems to be the most appropriate charge, given there's no suggestion he was actually directly culpable for the death, doesn't it? He received virtually the full sentence possible. 21yrs vs 24 max. And, again, he will not be released early unless and until he convinces a parole board that he is no danger, and he will not even be eligible for many year... Appalling taste in partners is not, yet, a criminal offence.
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Greenwood2
Member of DD Central
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Post by Greenwood2 on Dec 6, 2021 20:35:56 GMT
The law is an ass sometimes! He was the one that allowed it to happen From that Sentencing Council blog explainer... "Unlawful act manslaughter is charged when death occurs due to a criminal act which a reasonable person would realise must subject some other person to at least the risk of some physical harm."That seems to be the most appropriate charge, given there's no suggestion he was actually directly culpable for the death, doesn't it? He received virtually the full sentence possible. 21yrs vs 24 max. And, again, he will not be released early unless and until he convinces a parole board that he is no danger, and he will not even be eligible for many year... Appalling taste in partners is not, yet, a criminal offence. I'd lock them both up and throw away the key. Edit: Corrected slip of the finger.
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