tallsuk
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Post by tallsuk on May 21, 2022 9:20:29 GMT
There is an interesting case developing between the founder of a property website and a self styled property guru. Vanessa Warwick co-founded and runs the website Property Tribes. It is one of the biggest forums for property investors and helps many small landlords. It is an excellent place to go for due diligence and they try to identify many of the scammers in the property world. One element of the property world that is frequently discussed is property trainers. Whilst these come in many shapes and forms, a common aspect is individuals who build a large social media presence showing how successful they are and telling people that if they come to their free seminar they will tell them lots of secrets of how to make millions in a short amount of time. As I am sure none of you will be shocked to find that these seminars are in fact hard sales pitches for further training where students learn the same things they could learn for many free websites and books. They often talk about getting into property investment with little or no money, which is of course not possible. Perhaps the very worst part is that they often seduce people who dont have money to start with, convincing them that money spent on training is an investment that will be returned quickly and if they spend money they cant afford to lose or even borrow the money, sometimes on credit cards etc, they will soon be able to pay it off. I believe the reason they target these groups is because people who have the money are far more likely dig a little deeper and will quickly see these gurus for what they actually are. Most people here probably have the knowledge and experience to dig up all sorts of dirt on these individuals. However, these gurus are aften very quick to 'protect' their reputations threatening legal actions against people who are publically critical. They are quick to spend money on lawyers who make all sort of threats. Vanessa Williams has decided to make a stand against one of the biggest gurus and he is going after her in the courts for liable knowing that defending an action could bankrupt her even if she wins. She is putting up the cash for half her defence and is trying to crowd fund money for the other half. I have no connection to any of these people, other than reading the property tribes website, but I hope that by posting the link to her crowd justice page some people here who do, like me, benefit from property, may be willing to make a small donation to what I feel is a good cause. The link is www.crowdjustice.com/case/vanessa-warwicks-case/There is an argument that a fool and his money are easily parted but I hope that we live in a society where we can at least try to protect these people from such dubious tactics. The fact that gurus can make enough money out of these people that they can then pay lawyers to use liable laws to stop genuine fair discussion and criticism shows how bad the situation has become. The crowd justice page has various links to mainstream media outlets that can't be scared off by threats of liable action but there is only so much they can do. |
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iRobot
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Post by iRobot on May 21, 2022 11:07:27 GMT
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tallsuk
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Post by tallsuk on May 21, 2022 11:10:58 GMT
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on May 21, 2022 11:25:56 GMT
Who in their right mind would believe somebody that says that they can make them a millionaire in 12 months time, even if they currently have no money?
This belongs in the other thread dealing with scams. Sorry for anyone that was taken advantage of, but gullible doesn't get anywhere near to describng people who fall for this.
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tallsuk
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Post by tallsuk on May 21, 2022 11:42:58 GMT
Who in their right mind would believe somebody that says that they can make them a millionaire in 12 months time, even if they currently have no money?
This belongs in the other thread dealing with scams. Sorry for anyone that was taken advantage of, but gullible doesn't get anywhere near to describng people who fall for this.
I think you have missed the purpose of my post. If you feel that people who fall foul of the scammers deserve what they get, then that is fair enough. Personally, I think that is a bit harsh but I am not going to argue that point. However, do you think it is fair that the scammers should then be able to use the profits to pay lawyers to use incredibly harsh liable laws to prevent people from warning the vulnerable?
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keitha
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Post by keitha on May 21, 2022 19:17:23 GMT
or even libel laws
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on May 22, 2022 10:40:20 GMT
Who in their right mind would believe somebody that says that they can make them a millionaire in 12 months time, even if they currently have no money?
This belongs in the other thread dealing with scams. Sorry for anyone that was taken advantage of, but gullible doesn't get anywhere near to describng people who fall for this.
I think you have missed the purpose of my post. If you feel that people who fall foul of the scammers deserve what they get, then that is fair enough. Personally, I think that is a bit harsh but I am not going to argue that point. However, do you think it is fair that the scammers should then be able to use the profits to pay lawyers to use incredibly harsh liable laws to prevent people from warning the vulnerable? My experience is that scams come in two forms. Either (1) get rich quick scams, or (2) panic and act quickly because your financial details have been compromised scams. Unfortunately two of the truest sayings are 'there's one born every minute' and 'a fool and their money are soon parted'. As I said in my post I have sympathy for anyone who has been conned, but only to the following extent:
- high amount of sympathy for old people who didn't realise what was going on
- medium level for people caught out by sophisticated scams
- low level for anyone who seriously believed that 'this time next year Rodney we'll be millionaires'
Regarding scammers using court action to prevent their operations getting exposed, how many super injunctions have been granted to stop the media from exposing the nefarious activities of the rich and famous? It may not be fair, but another famous saying springs to mind, 'life is like a sh*t sandwich, the more bread you have the less sh*t you have to deal with'.
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tallsuk
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Post by tallsuk on May 22, 2022 12:41:34 GMT
The only expression that springs to my mind is 'dont feed the trolls'.
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Brainer
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Post by Brainer on May 23, 2022 20:12:53 GMT
Good on her. I came across this type of thing several years ago after a friend asked to borrow £10k for a 'wealth mastery' course. He has the mindset that unless he becomes rich his life will be a failure, and has jumped from one idea to the next with essentially no progress for going on a decade. After a bit of research I came to the conclusion the course was likely a scam and declined. Undeterred by my protestations he said he'd find the money elsewhere. I said I'd go to the free seminar with him before he committed to anything. Needless to say the seminar was like tallsuk described above. I was initially amazed that they were doing this in broad daylight, in a fairly large conference hall in a major city. Hundreds of people were there. But the gurus are careful and clever about how they operate. Very little of what they say is factually inaccurate or impossible, it's generally either basic, freely available information which sounds impressive to a beginner, or specialist areas (e.g. Forex trading) dressed up as something anyone can easily do with some paid guidance from them. The whole thing had a slight cult vibe, with the charismatic preacher leading the flock to the promised land. The people I spoke to didn't come across as complete fools, just blinded from healthy scepticism by an overwhelming desire to better themselves. My reservations were met with accusations of being unambitious and too negative. I have some sympathy. Deciphering between legitimate and scammer isn't always obvious when the latter intentionally mimics the former and the student is uninformed. And there are nuggets of genuine information, so at what point does (very) poor value for money cross the line into being a scam? Also, hardly feel I'm one to talk, I once thought 12% interest with a maximum LTV of 70% was a good idea. |
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Post by mfaxford on May 26, 2022 18:38:13 GMT
I have some sympathy. Deciphering between legitimate and scammer isn't always obvious when the latter intentionally mimics the former and the student is uninformed. And there are nuggets of genuine information, so at what point does (very) poor value for money cross the line into being a scam? Also, hardly feel I'm one to talk, I once thought 12% interest with a maximum LTV of 70% was a good idea. That reminds me of a presentation into company offering good returns by using their trading package to invest in crypto and forex markets. The idea was you bought a number of packages at a fixed price and these would then provide a regular return from their software trading on your behalf. I can see how people could be easily brought into the scheme - especially as each package was something like €60, and you would see your money increasing day by day on the site. There were also the added perks of trips away with the founders for those in the higher tiers. A bit of scratching at the surface and I could see some signs of it being a pyramid scheme (enough for me to stay clear). It's since been shutdown (and possibly re-launched a couple of times). At the presentation there were a few others who were potentially interested in signing up and several others who had apparently already signed up. I did wonder if those already signed up were aware of the pyramid scheme side of things and were more interested in getting others to join so they had a chance of getting something back or if they really believed in it as a system to make money.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on May 27, 2022 9:36:00 GMT
Anyone remember Amway
I had a friend who was recruited into this and she persuaded me to go to a presentation.
The idea was you got a percentage for selling products but you were better off recruiting others to sell as you got a percentage of what they made ( 10% springs to mind ) and of course when they recruited and got their own team you made even more, and if you reached level 7 you'd be making £10,000 a month
I saw through it quite easily as an example
level 1 you
level 2 10 sellers you recruit
level 3 100 they recruit
level 4 1000 they recruit
level 5 10000 they recruit
level 6 100000 they recruit
level 7 1 million they recruit
So now you have 1,111,111 people selling basically at the point the whole thing falls over as not enough people not in the scheme to sell to to make any profit.
but you had people falling over themselves to sign up and buy the "sample" packs
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Post by bernythedolt on May 27, 2022 10:36:08 GMT
Anyone remember Amway I had a friend who was recruited into this and she persuaded me to go to a presentation. The idea was you got a percentage for selling products but you were better off recruiting others to sell as you got a percentage of what they made ( 10% springs to mind ) and of course when they recruited and got their own team you made even more, and if you reached level 7 you'd be making £10,000 a month I saw through it quite easily as an example level 1 you level 2 10 sellers you recruit level 3 100 they recruit level 4 1000 they recruit level 5 10000 they recruit level 6 100000 they recruit level 7 1 million they recruit So now you have 1,111,111 people selling basically at the point the whole thing falls over as not enough people not in the scheme to sell to to make any profit. but you had people falling over themselves to sign up and buy the "sample" packs Mostly cleaning products. My mother became an agent for a short while. Her bathroom slowly became stocked with Amway products. Having been brainwashed by the company that this was the route to riches, she invited my wife and me to a presentation to become agents under her. She was a little upset when I saw through it immediately, declined, and explained that the model could not possibly work, as you have above. She was intelligent, but she was poor, so too readily recruited into the fold. Such was the persuasive power of this pyramid selling scheme. Simultaneously, a bloke at work had been recruited by Amway too, so I had the sales pitch bull in both ears extolling the virtues of the latest swish spray-on cleans-itself ceramic sink cleaner, etc, etc. A handful at the top of the pyramid will have made a mint from this.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on May 27, 2022 11:31:39 GMT
Anyone remember Amway I had a friend who was recruited into this and she persuaded me to go to a presentation. The idea was you got a percentage for selling products but you were better off recruiting others to sell as you got a percentage of what they made ( 10% springs to mind ) and of course when they recruited and got their own team you made even more, and if you reached level 7 you'd be making £10,000 a month I saw through it quite easily as an example level 1 you level 2 10 sellers you recruit level 3 100 they recruit level 4 1000 they recruit level 5 10000 they recruit level 6 100000 they recruit level 7 1 million they recruit So now you have 1,111,111 people selling basically at the point the whole thing falls over as not enough people not in the scheme to sell to to make any profit. but you had people falling over themselves to sign up and buy the "sample" packs Mostly cleaning products. My mother became an agent for a short while. Her bathroom slowly became stocked with Amway products. Having been brainwashed by the company that this was the route to riches, she invited my wife and me to a presentation to become agents under her. She was a little upset when I saw through it immediately, declined, and explained that the model could not possibly work, as you have above. She was intelligent, but she was poor, so too readily recruited into the fold. Such was the persuasive power of this pyramid selling scheme. Simultaneously, a bloke at work had been recruited by Amway too, so I had the sales pitch bull in both ears extolling the virtues of the latest swish spray-on cleans-itself ceramic sink cleaner, etc, etc. A handful at the top of the pyramid will have made a mint from this. Does Avon still work a bit like this with their system of Reps. Quite a few years ago I remember one rep who was actively trying to recruit sub-reps and she would get a share of their profits while paying a share of hers to the rep above.
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Brainer
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Post by Brainer on May 27, 2022 20:45:16 GMT
Anyone remember Amway I had a friend who was recruited into this and she persuaded me to go to a presentation. The idea was you got a percentage for selling products but you were better off recruiting others to sell as you got a percentage of what they made ( 10% springs to mind ) and of course when they recruited and got their own team you made even more, and if you reached level 7 you'd be making £10,000 a month I saw through it quite easily as an example level 1 you level 2 10 sellers you recruit level 3 100 they recruit level 4 1000 they recruit level 5 10000 they recruit level 6 100000 they recruit level 7 1 million they recruit So now you have 1,111,111 people selling basically at the point the whole thing falls over as not enough people not in the scheme to sell to to make any profit. but you had people falling over themselves to sign up and buy the "sample" packs Mostly cleaning products. My mother became an agent for a short while. Her bathroom slowly became stocked with Amway products. Having been brainwashed by the company that this was the route to riches, she invited my wife and me to a presentation to become agents under her. She was a little upset when I saw through it immediately, declined, and explained that the model could not possibly work, as you have above. She was intelligent, but she was poor, so too readily recruited into the fold. Such was the persuasive power of this pyramid selling scheme. Simultaneously, a bloke at work had been recruited by Amway too, so I had the sales pitch bull in both ears extolling the virtues of the latest swish spray-on cleans-itself ceramic sink cleaner, etc, etc. A handful at the top of the pyramid will have made a mint from this.
Difference now is people/youngsters get the sales pitch pumped into their eyeballs every time they pick up their phone.
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Post by bernythedolt on May 27, 2022 22:26:41 GMT
Mostly cleaning products. My mother became an agent for a short while. Her bathroom slowly became stocked with Amway products. Having been brainwashed by the company that this was the route to riches, she invited my wife and me to a presentation to become agents under her. She was a little upset when I saw through it immediately, declined, and explained that the model could not possibly work, as you have above. She was intelligent, but she was poor, so too readily recruited into the fold. Such was the persuasive power of this pyramid selling scheme. Simultaneously, a bloke at work had been recruited by Amway too, so I had the sales pitch bull in both ears extolling the virtues of the latest swish spray-on cleans-itself ceramic sink cleaner, etc, etc. A handful at the top of the pyramid will have made a mint from this.
Difference now is people/youngsters get the sales pitch pumped into their eyeballs every time they pick up their phone.
Ah, Forex trading. Some years ago I looked into this and taught myself how to trade, using an 'offline' sandpit and 'play' money. I even wrote my own trading robots (in an MT4/C++ derivative), designing my own buy & sell triggers, and back-testing them against historic data. Some were mediocre, some successful. It took me a few weeks, and I enjoyed the process very much, but I eventually came to the conclusion that it was a mug's game overall, so I didn't ever pursue it 'live'. As a maths graduate, all my learning had suggested it would be a mug's game, so it was good to have that borne out in practice too. As I recall (it was a few years ago now) the real big killer to turning a profit was any positions you hadn't closed out overnight. The overnight charges were pretty fierce, yet having to force close a trade before close of play would be even costlier. (The one or two ex-professional traders on this forum will hopefully correct my terminology here if I've remembered it wrong). I imagine these "Instatrader" courses look quite alluring to many youngsters out there. I hope not too many get suckered in, and, if they do, that they keep tight control over what they stand to lose. Many, I fear, will end up learning the hard way. One immediate tell-tale is the number of people out there selling/renting their latest whizz-bang robot that supposedly does all the trading for you based on some smart algorithm, using buy/sell triggers that only they have thought of... It ought to dawn pretty quickly that if it truly pulled in the riches claimed, they would have kept it for themselves, family and friends! I quickly realised that the best way to make money off your robot is to sell/rent it to a bunch of mugs with cash on the hip, each hoping to get rich quick. I'm pleased to say I never 'invested' in one of these little cons (and, for completeness, neither did I have the gall to try selling mine!). Closer to home, my (PhD engineering/maths/software) son-in-law is currently dabbling in trading on crypto market indices, and apparently showing a profit. He's starting small, but some days he's made as much as £500. I warned him about the swingeing overnight fees, but apparently I'm behind the times, because there aren't any! He says it's a 24hr operation. Perhaps he's even cracked it, time will tell... 
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