keitha
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Post by keitha on Jun 8, 2022 10:39:49 GMT
A neighbour went to a local car dealer, and agreed an upgrade to a much newer car.
He wanted a couple of jobs doing on the car, and paid for that work and the new car.
He left his existing car.
2 days later he gets a panicked call from his wife that the lot is being emptied.
He rushes down, and finds it's bailiffs
Although he showed paperwork showing the new car was his they refused to remove it from the transporter and told him he will have to go to the auction and buy it.
The police say it's a civil matter as although he has a bill of sale the transfer papers were never completed and submitted ( I suspect the the bailiffs found them and they mysteriously vanished )
Where does he go? he can probably get his money back on part of the cost as it was via card, but he would still down the value of his old car at about £4,000
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jun 8, 2022 11:10:16 GMT
Citizens Advice Bureau?
Sharpish.
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Mike
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Post by Mike on Jun 8, 2022 11:55:58 GMT
What are the "transfer papers" that weren't complete? Does he have a receipt/invoice for it?
If you mean the V5 then that is not really important, that only refers to the registered keeper (where the speeding tickets are sent!) and doesn't have anything to do with ownership (and says so in big letters on the front). I have a V5 for the car I drive but the car doesn't belong to me (and never has) - it's owned by a company. That is also the case for many leased cars.
If the V5 really is a problem, he can apply to get a new one without the green slip the dealer failed to give him but it will cost a small fee and has to be done by post.
It sounds like the kind of thing that will be sorted fairly quickly through the office rather than the guys on the ground who no doubt are told to ignore any protestations when it comes to (supposedly) corporate recoveries
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2022 12:20:29 GMT
so to be clear.
He gave a car to a company and he ordered a new car.
I assume the company went bust.
Yikes, I think he has lost it.
I'm trying to think of some positive things to say but struggling
Has he learnt from this lesson?
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 8, 2022 12:25:08 GMT
A neighbour went to a local car dealer, and agreed an upgrade to a much newer car. He wanted a couple of jobs doing on the car, and paid for that work and the new car. He left his existing car. 2 days later he gets a panicked call from his wife that the lot is being emptied. He rushes down, and finds it's bailiffs Although he showed paperwork showing the new car was his they refused to remove it from the transporter and told him he will have to go to the auction and buy it. The police say it's a civil matter as although he has a bill of sale the transfer papers were never completed and submitted ( I suspect the the bailiffs found them and they mysteriously vanished ) Where does he go? he can probably get his money back on part of the cost as it was via card, but he would still down the value of his old car at about £4,000 Has the car company gone bust, or have the baliffs just removed goods to cover an unpaid debt?
- If it's the first option then I guess you just become an unsecured creditor of the collapsed business (proof of payment doesn't constitute proof of ownership)
- If it's the second option then I guess you go to the seller and demand your money back (given he hasn't supplied what you paid him for)
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 8, 2022 12:39:26 GMT
He wanted a couple of jobs doing on the car, and paid for that work and the new car.
if part of the agreement is that the seller must do something to the goods before they are delivered, then ownership only passes when that agreed action has been carried out and the buyer has been told that it has been done.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 9, 2022 10:05:49 GMT
He is an unsecured creditor of a bankrupt company.
End of.
One of the cars should still be his, though. The question is which.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 9, 2022 10:27:34 GMT
I'm curious why the neighbour paid the full amount (including leaving his original car) before he was able to take away the new car.
I can understand paying up front for the couple of jobs, but I would have thought a modest deposit and balance due on collection?
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Jun 9, 2022 10:38:48 GMT
I'm curious why the neighbour paid the full amount (including leaving his original car) before he was able to take away the new car.
I can understand paying up front for the couple of jobs, but I would have thought a modest deposit and balance due on collection?
That seems to be the norm here in Wales, when I got my new car I paid for it and arranged to collect a couple of days later so I could sort insurance etc. I my case I brought existing car home I'd never thought what happened if they went bust mid transaction
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Post by bernythedolt on Jun 9, 2022 22:18:21 GMT
I'm curious why the neighbour paid the full amount (including leaving his original car) before he was able to take away the new car.
I can understand paying up front for the couple of jobs, but I would have thought a modest deposit and balance due on collection?
That seems to be the norm here in Wales, when I got my new car I paid for it and arranged to collect a couple of days later so I could sort insurance etc. I my case I brought existing car home I'd never thought what happened if they went bust mid transaction Strange, as I've only ever done as agent69 outlines, even in Wales. Small deposit to secure the order, then the lion's share paid upon collection. Insurance procured within that window. Car dealers don't exactly have the most trustworthy reputation, so handing one a large chunk of your money, with nothing to show for it, would seem a bit foolhardy. I'm no legal whizz, but I should have thought a Bill of Sale would be sufficient proof that the contract has been completed and the vehicle is now his. In effect, it may have been stolen from him. I would be visiting a solicitor, armed with this Bill of Sale. Edit: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_sale seems very clear that this document proves transfer of ownership. The bailiffs have taken his property, which is of course illegal.
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reinvestor
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Post by reinvestor on Jun 9, 2022 22:49:03 GMT
Caveat: it is late and I have been to the pub. I may not have grasped the full facts of this!
If your neighbour has an invoice (not a deposit receipt) for the transaction then the car he was intending to purchase is his.
Even if the car has been recovered by bailiffs to recover an overall charge or a specific charge against that actual vehicle (as would be the case in a stocking finance agreement) then the innocent purchaser rule would apply and your neighbour would be entitled to full and legal title of the car they have purchased. The car he was part exchanging is no longer his an this could be part of whatever recovery process is ongoing if the dealership has gone into administration.
Having worked in the car finance industry for many years, there are many quirks to the legal title of cars. An invoice or lack of will determine your neighbour’s position
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 10, 2022 8:12:50 GMT
Another possible wrinkle to the situation...
Was there stocking finance on the car being purchased? Or might it have been a commission sale?
If so, and if the previous owner or financier have not been paid, then don't they come ahead of the innocent purchaser?
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Nov 1, 2022 19:06:21 GMT
All's well that ends well.
He took legal advice, and reported the new car stolen.
He found out where the car was being held and armed with a crime number and details he went to the compound where the vehicles were stored.
They still refused to hand it over, local police turned up, he explained the situation and showed them the documentation and the crime reference. Police told security "thugs" to give him the car and keys as it was clearly his car, Thug said "No chance" Policeman politely explained that either he handed over the car and keys or they would be checking every detail of every car on site, and magically keys were handed over.
Work was never done to the car, but he's happy to be down £300 rather than more than £10K
I do rather hope that police went back and checked the site
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