michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 4, 2022 12:23:17 GMT
Clearly not but I respectfully suggest you missed my point. I don't think he did. There's a difference between possession of a gun and possession of an unlicenced gun. Can you see what it is? Possession of a gun does not bring a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. Possession of a gun is perfectly legal, subject to various legal caveats. Many friends and neighbours of mine possess them perfectly legally, as apparently does Berny. But your original scenario posited was not mere possession, was it? Your actual scenario of threatening to kill a burglar with an illegal handgun (sorry - "lump of metal") stored under your bed will bring a sentence of longer than five years - and rightly so, imho. Yes possession of an illegal gun - I thought it was pretty obvious that was what I was referring to all along in this thread.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 4, 2022 12:29:01 GMT
[Yes possession of an illegal gun - I thought it was pretty obvious that was what I was referring to all along in this thread. Despite your attempts at obfuscation and dissembling, yes, it was perfectly obvious that your "lump of metal" is actually a totally illegal handgun. BTW, this is the legislation in question : www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/64Remember the context in which it was passed... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre - the last school shooting in the UK, the last mass handgun shooting in the UK, and the deadliest gun massacre in UK history, with 18 dead - only one gun massacre into double figures has happened in the 26 years since. Now, how does that compare to the US...?
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Jul 4, 2022 12:39:05 GMT
It's a gun. A gun is controlled item in UK Having a gun is not a right in the UK If you have a gun you have to do specific things with it. Does not include stuffing it under your bed. So yes, sentencing is correct. Impossible to have grown up in UK and not know this. I was horrified to learn one of my American friends sleeps with a loaded pistol under his pillow, and has an assault rifle behind the door, the pro gun lobby seem to take the view that shooting burglars dead stops them doing it again. One of the big issues is they regard more guns as the answer not less, so they want Teachers armed. We British being sensible take completely the opposite view. Of course we cause our own issues, When my grandfather died in the early 80's we found some souvenirs of WW1 in his effects. The Pistol, Ammunition.bayonet and a really nasty knuckle duster come knife were carefully packed into a suitcase which we locked and took to the local police station for disposal. The OTT reaction of my 4ft 10 mother being pushed against a wall by 2 hulking cops after she explained what was in the suitcase was ridiculous
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 4, 2022 12:40:06 GMT
[Yes possession of an illegal gun - I thought it was pretty obvious that was what I was referring to all along in this thread. Despite your attempts at obfuscation and dissembling, yes, it was perfectly obvious that your "lump of metal" is actually a totally illegal handgun. BTW, this is the legislation in question : www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/64Remember the context in which it was passed... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre - the last school shooting in the UK, the last mass handgun shooting in the UK, and the deadliest gun massacre in UK history, with 18 dead - only one gun massacre into double figures has happened in the 26 years since. Now, how does that compare to the US...? Not an attempt at obfuscation. If it was it was a very poor one ! Just to keep it in context as to what a gun is. No doubt somewhere there is a very technical definition. I suppose I'm agreeing with many of your US friends who claim that any disasters/massacres or even more "mundane" murders and shootings are 100% the fault of the person using the gun. But that wasn't the point of this thread which was to ask if anyone agrees that keeping a lump of metal (a gun) under ones's bed that does absolutely nothing should attract a minimum sentence of 5 years in prison even though in many other western democracies that would not be a crime at all. I think my view is it also should not be a crime and I was wondering if anyone would persuade me otherwise.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Jul 4, 2022 12:56:20 GMT
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 4, 2022 13:09:36 GMT
I suppose I'm agreeing with many of your US friends who claim that any disasters/massacres or even more "mundane" murders and shootings are 100% the fault of the person using the gun. Child A is hitting child B with a big stick. Yes, it's the fault of A... but surely you'd take the stick away and tell both children not to wave big sticks at each other again...? If this illegal handgun does absolutely nothing, what's the point of keeping it? It doesn't, of course, "do absolutely nothing". It does something. It has one sole purpose - as a tool to kill people. If it isn't being used for that, it's being used to threaten to do that. If not for that, then you might as well just keep the crowbar that bracknellboy linked to early on the last page. At least that has a legitimately useful non-lethal purpose.
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aj
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Post by aj on Jul 4, 2022 14:33:34 GMT
I think the pro-gun lot like the idea of having a gun as some sort of comforter, as it would make them feel safer? They fail to do the maths that their easy access to guns would equal easy access to guns for everyone else. Personally I feel much safer living in a country where any criminal/nutter/drunkard who might wish harm upon me will have to take their chances with a knife which at least evens the playing field a bit.
The minimum sentencing for getting caught with an unlicensed gun seems fine to me. If you get caught with one, clearly it hasn't been kept responsibly enough as you've been caught. Criminalising possession means police aren't burdened with proving intent to use.
There are regular firearms amnesties (google says the last one was in may) so there are really no excuses available for anyone caught.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jul 4, 2022 15:01:23 GMT
It's a gun. A gun is controlled item in UK Having a gun is not a right in the UKIf you have a gun you have to do specific things with it. Does not include stuffing it under your bed. So yes, sentencing is correct. Impossible to have grown up in UK and not know this. Clearly not but I respectfully suggest you missed my point. My point is that keeping guns out of society is possibly a good thing but that a mandatory sentence of 5 years seems extraordinary.How does that square with our love of America, Israel and others where in many regions you'd be laughed out of town for suggesting a minimum 5 year jail sentence for merely keeping the thing. Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but which bit of legislation are you pointing to which gives a mandatory minimum of 5 year jail sentence for 'merely keeping' an unlicensed gun ? I repeat what I said earlier: the particular piece of sentencing guidelines you linked to is sentencing for possession of prohibited firearms. i.e. those types of firearm which are of a specification such that they are prohibited from ownership by the Public in the UK, period. It is not for unlicensed possession of a firearm type allowed under UK legislation; nor for the sentences for breaching conditions of licensing (such as storage requirements). Maybe I have misunderstood, but before getting too het up about draconian sentencing for something, perhaps one should find the right sentencing. From what I can tell, in your particular scenario, the following might be appropriate: Sentencing guidelines for firearms offences publishedI may of course have misunderstood, and you may well want to be owning a gun fitted with a bump stock, a shotgun illegally shortened, an automatic rifle, a pistol with a barrel under the legal length, etc. in which case you had the right link.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jul 4, 2022 15:05:15 GMT
I'm beginning to think I shouldn't be googling all this .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2022 15:38:31 GMT
I was amused by the troll adding in the love of USA and Israel thing in and amongst.
My points stand
I don't especially love Israel, been once and struggled with the departure interview. Worked with Israeli businesses, pretty honest.
USA been on holiday to CA and for work all over. Dislike the open carry guns. Basically honest business people but don't like working for them.
The trolls claim to a UK education is so at variance with his knowledge.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 4, 2022 15:48:54 GMT
Clearly not but I respectfully suggest you missed my point. My point is that keeping guns out of society is possibly a good thing but that a mandatory sentence of 5 years seems extraordinary.How does that square with our love of America, Israel and others where in many regions you'd be laughed out of town for suggesting a minimum 5 year jail sentence for merely keeping the thing. Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but which bit of legislation are you pointing to which gives a mandatory minimum of 5 year jail sentence for 'merely keeping' an unlicensed gun ? I repeat what I said earlier: the particular piece of sentencing guidelines you linked to is sentencing for possession of prohibited firearms. i.e. those types of firearm which are of a specification such that they are prohibited from ownership by the Public in the UK. It is not for unlicensed possession of a firearm type allowed under UK legislation; nor for the sentences for breaching conditions of licensing (such as storage requirements). Maybe I have misunderstood, but before getting too het up about draconian sentencing for something, perhaps one should find the right sentencing. From what I can tell, in your particular scenario, the following might be appropriate: Sentencing guidelines for firearms offences publishedI may of course have misunderstood, and you may well want to be owning a gun fitted with a bump stock, a shotgun illegally shortened, an automatic rifle, a pistol with a barrel under the legal length, etc. in which case you had the right link. You have misunderstood. I do not necessarily want to own such a gun myself but want to understand why our laws are so different to comparable western democracies and specifically why our sentencing is so incredibly harsh for an offence which is not even an offence in those countries. The fact I refer to the 5 year minimum clearly implies I am talking about such firearms. Quite why you like to personalize debate so frequently, is beyond me. I can only guess but if something isn't right away from the keyboard I hope it improves for you soon.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jul 4, 2022 16:47:19 GMT
Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but which bit of legislation are you pointing to which gives a mandatory minimum of 5 year jail sentence for 'merely keeping' an unlicensed gun ? I repeat what I said earlier: the particular piece of sentencing guidelines you linked to is sentencing for possession of prohibited firearms. i.e. those types of firearm which are of a specification such that they are prohibited from ownership by the Public in the UK. It is not for unlicensed possession of a firearm type allowed under UK legislation; nor for the sentences for breaching conditions of licensing (such as storage requirements). Maybe I have misunderstood, but before getting too het up about draconian sentencing for something, perhaps one should find the right sentencing. From what I can tell, in your particular scenario, the following might be appropriate: Sentencing guidelines for firearms offences publishedI may of course have misunderstood, and you may well want to be owning a gun fitted with a bump stock, a shotgun illegally shortened, an automatic rifle, a pistol with a barrel under the legal length, etc. in which case you had the right link. You have misunderstood. I do not necessarily want to own such a gun myself but want to understand why our laws are so different to comparable western democracies and specifically why our sentencing is so incredibly harsh for an offence which is not even an offence in those countries. The fact I refer to the 5 year minimum clearly implies I am talking about such firearms. Quite why you like to personalize debate so frequently, is beyond me. I can only guess but if something isn't right away from the keyboard I hope it improves for you soon. OK, so it is specifically prohibited firearms you intended to mean, not firearms in general. Nothing personal. But you stated one may want to have a 'lump of metal' but it was unconscionable it was subject to 5 years statutory minimum. You then went on to say you meant gun, but then pointed to penalties specifically for prohibited weapons, not to possessing firearms in general. That is very 'muddled' and therefore rather difficult to understand the intended meaning since several bits of information are in apparent conflict. And indeed appear to be deliberately constructed to 'provoke' based on describing e.g. a weapon fitted with a bump stock, as used in the Las Vegas shooting in 2017 as a 'lump of metal'. So just to clarify: - You can legally have a lump of metal under your pillow / bed - You can legally hold a non prohibited firearm providing you go through the licensing process and are deemed fit to have one - You must of course then store any such licensed weapons in accordance with the regulations. I'm not familiar with them, but I expect that precludes having them under your pillow, but might include having them under your bed (provided its in a properly secured and fixed storage container). The ammunition may be required to be held separately, but not very separately: Not a area I'm overly familiar with (I recall a friend of mine in university days had his handguns in the loft, where we also home filled ammunition). - If you fall into the first category but fail the second, you will be liable to some penalty, but certainly not a statutory minimum of 5 years (indeed the offense may include discharged) - Only if you are caught with a weapon type which has been deemed illegal will you be in breach of the law which leads to a statutory minimum of 5 years. You say most or many other western countries would allow. The UK does have relatively tight gun laws, but I'd be fairly confident most european countries have laws prohibiting certain firearms I'm sure, which will have associated penalties. If you wish to really back the statement up, it would be worth doing the homework to provide side by side comparison of which firearms are allowed in which countries. I mentioned bumpstocks: they are one of the items specifically covered by the prohibited firearms guidelines you pointed at it seems. The UK introduced a ban on them a few months after Federal legislation in the US. In the US ownership is subject to a 10 year penalty. Apparently. [albeit, of course that ban is being appealed, as you might expect in the US].
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jul 4, 2022 17:11:57 GMT
I had a friend who had a licence to have (legal) guns, he kept them at home but the guns had to be stored in a secure gun store in the house (not under the bed), to prevent theft or any minors etc getting access, the ammunition had to be stored at his gun club/shooting range or whatever it was called. This was a few years ago so I don't know if the rules have got tighter or looser.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jul 4, 2022 17:18:30 GMT
I had a friend who had a licence to have (legal) guns, he kept them at home but the guns had to be stored in a secure gun store in the house (not under the bed), to prevent theft or any minors etc getting access, the ammunition had to be stored at his gun club/shooting range or whatever it was called. This was a few years ago so I don't know if the rules have got tighter or looser. That's interesting: I thought that current legislation required separate storage e.g. at gun club, but I'm sure one of my (licensed) friends told me around 2-3 years ago that wasn't the case. Whiuch I was surprised about. But maybe I didn't ask the question he thought I was asking.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 4, 2022 17:45:09 GMT
...but want to understand why our laws are so different to comparable western democracies... Many other European countries are similarly strict. Not all, no, but many. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation#EuropeWhy? Because that's what the public of this country have decided, through our elected representatives, over the course of many decades. There really doesn't seem to be much public demand to loosen the legislation. I'd even go so far as to suggest that the US is the outlier amongst comparable Western democracies, not the UK. They certainly have by far and away the highest rate of ownership - roughly three to four times as many guns per capita as the next highest non-trivially-small countries. Five times that of Switzerland, which is often held as having high gun ownership (albeit largely tied to their national service). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country
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