mogish
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Post by mogish on Nov 23, 2022 11:43:18 GMT
Looks like it wont go ahead for a while. Other priorities IMO.
Tea towel , flags and hat manufacturers may be dissapointed.
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jo
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Post by jo on Nov 23, 2022 11:59:47 GMT
Looks like it wont go ahead for a while. Other priorities IMO. Tea towel , flags and hat manufacturers may be dissapointed. Entirely predictable and a massive waste of money. No parliament created by an Act of another parliament can subsequently legislate itself superior to the parliament of its creation.
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keitha
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2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
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Post by keitha on Nov 24, 2022 14:26:48 GMT
LOL I love the hypocrisy of Blackford talking about England trampling on Democracy.
How many times have we had Labour UK governments that basically only had a majority because of Scottish and Welsh Labour MPs was that not the Scots and Welsh trampling on democracy.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Nov 24, 2022 16:11:48 GMT
LOL I love the hypocrisy of Blackford talking about England trampling on Democracy. How many times have we had Labour UK governments that basically only had a majority because of Scottish and Welsh Labour MPs was that not the Scots and Welsh trampling on democracy. if you support a first past the post electoral system then you are already comfortable with minorities ruling over the majority. Conservative (and Labour) rarely if ever get 50%+ of English vote - it was 47% in England last time for the Tories (43% UK), on which they won a "landslide" majority of 80 seats.
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mogish
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Indyref 2
Nov 24, 2022 16:31:02 GMT
via mobile
Post by mogish on Nov 24, 2022 16:31:02 GMT
NS definitely looked like she had swallowed a wasp yesterday. I must say I'm not keen on independence but let's get a poll done and if it's the same outcomeas 2014 than it should never be discussed again.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2022 17:06:40 GMT
no, it will be "best out of three"
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Post by overthehill on Nov 24, 2022 19:52:36 GMT
NS definitely looked like she had swallowed a wasp yesterday. I must say I'm not keen on independence but let's get a poll done and if it's the same outcomeas 2014 than it should never be discussed again.
They said once in a generation last time which turned out to be a politicians promise i.e. meaningless. The pre-planning such as reducing the voting age, economic hype, secret white elephants and lies were about perfect for a yes vote.
She looks more like a bulldog chewing a wasp for each post-referendum year that passes.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Nov 24, 2022 20:08:12 GMT
I voted remain in the Brexit vote becauseI couldn't see any easy way to seperate the UK from the EU. Given that Scotland is far more integrated into the UK than the UK ever was within the EU, I can't see how independence could ever work.
As an example, what do the SNP propose doing with the nuclear submarine base at Faslane? There's no way that the rest of the UK will accept having their nuclear deterrent based in another country, so will Scotland pay to have it relocated?
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Nov 24, 2022 20:11:00 GMT
NS definitely looked like she had swallowed a wasp yesterday. I must say I'm not keen on independence but let's get a poll done and if it's the same outcomeas 2014 than it should never be discussed again. But that's not how it works. The SNP will keep pressing for indy ref 2, 3, 4, 5 etc until they get the result they want. Then the word referendum will be consigned to history.
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 24, 2022 21:02:59 GMT
I voted remain in the Brexit vote becauseI couldn't see any easy way to seperate the UK from the EU. Given that Scotland is far more integrated into the UK than the UK ever was within the EU, I can't see how independence could ever work.
As an example, what do the SNP propose doing with the nuclear submarine base at Faslane? There's no way that the rest of the UK will accept having their nuclear deterrent based in another country, so will Scotland pay to have it relocated?
If Scotland went independent, why on earth would they pay to have it relocated? They'd just say that the UK-1 entity has to remove their nuclear subs from Scottish territory. It would be the rest that would have to pay for that (many billions of pounds), not Scotland. Now of course, if Scotland wanted to remain part of some 'mutual defence pact' with the remainder of the UK, then the negotiating power would look a little different. "yes you can, but in return for paying ......" (the SNP has made it clear they wouldn't have any nuclear weapons based from scotland in the event of "independence", regardless of what form that might take.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Nov 24, 2022 21:11:10 GMT
I voted remain in the Brexit vote becauseI couldn't see any easy way to seperate the UK from the EU. Given that Scotland is far more integrated into the UK than the UK ever was within the EU, I can't see how independence could ever work.
As an example, what do the SNP propose doing with the nuclear submarine base at Faslane? There's no way that the rest of the UK will accept having their nuclear deterrent based in another country, so will Scotland pay to have it relocated?
If Scotland went independent, why on earth would they pay to have it relocated? They'd just say that the UK-1 entity has to remove their nuclear subs from Scottish territory. It would be the rest that would have to pay for that (many billions of pounds), not Scotland. Now of course, if Scotland wanted to remain part of some 'mutual defence pact' with the remainder of the UK, then the negotiating power would look a little different. "yes you can, but in return for paying ......" (the SNP has made it clear they wouldn't have any nuclear weapons based from scotland in the event of "independence", regardless of what form that might take. Because Scotland can only become independent if the rest of the UK agrees, and one of the conditions would be 'you pay to relocate Faslane, and you don't get independence until it's done'. Same with border controls at Gretna Green. If we are going to incur a cost then Scotland pays.
Why on earth would we agree to independence if it's going to cost us a fortune?
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Nov 24, 2022 21:18:45 GMT
If Scotland went independent, why on earth would they pay to have it relocated? They'd just say that the UK-1 entity has to remove their nuclear subs from Scottish territory. It would be the rest that would have to pay for that (many billions of pounds), not Scotland. Now of course, if Scotland wanted to remain part of some 'mutual defence pact' with the remainder of the UK, then the negotiating power would look a little different. "yes you can, but in return for paying ......" (the SNP has made it clear they wouldn't have any nuclear weapons based from scotland in the event of "independence", regardless of what form that might take. Because Scotland can only become independent if the rest of the UK agrees, and one of the conditions would be 'you pay to relocate Faslane, and you don't get independence until it's done'. Same with border controls at Gretna Green. If we are going to incur a cost then Scotland pays.
Why on earth would we agree to independence if it's going to cost us a fortune?
From their plans ahead of the 2014 referendum. The transition of Faslane from a submarine base to Scotland's main naval base and joint force headquarters will be managed gradually: personnel and equipment will be brought into the Scottish defence forces and infrastructure will be developed, while the personnel and equipment remaining within the Royal Navy are relocated by the Ministry of Defence.
The Scottish Government intends the transition to be complete within ten years. The transitional arrangements will support both the day to day operations and the workforce levels at the base. We will retain the capacity for shared arrangements with the rest of the UK and other allies, recognising Faslane's excellent deep water facilities and its geographical position.
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 24, 2022 21:36:08 GMT
Because Scotland can only become independent if the rest of the UK agrees, and one of the conditions would be 'you pay to relocate Faslane, and you don't get independence until it's done'. Same with border controls at Gretna Green. If we are going to incur a cost then Scotland pays.
Why on earth would we agree to independence if it's going to cost us a fortune?
From their plans ahead of the 2014 referendum. The transition of Faslane from a submarine base to Scotland's main naval base and joint force headquarters will be managed gradually: personnel and equipment will be brought into the Scottish defence forces and infrastructure will be developed, while the personnel and equipment remaining within the Royal Navy are relocated by the Ministry of Defence.
The Scottish Government intends the transition to be complete within ten years. The transitional arrangements will support both the day to day operations and the workforce levels at the base. We will retain the capacity for shared arrangements with the rest of the UK and other allies, recognising Faslane's excellent deep water facilities and its geographical position.and no mention of an expectation that Scotland would pay billions of pounds - in whatever form - for UK-1 to build and transfer to a new facility elsewhere.
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Nov 24, 2022 21:51:05 GMT
From their plans ahead of the 2014 referendum. The transition of Faslane from a submarine base to Scotland's main naval base and joint force headquarters will be managed gradually: personnel and equipment will be brought into the Scottish defence forces and infrastructure will be developed, while the personnel and equipment remaining within the Royal Navy are relocated by the Ministry of Defence.
The Scottish Government intends the transition to be complete within ten years. The transitional arrangements will support both the day to day operations and the workforce levels at the base. We will retain the capacity for shared arrangements with the rest of the UK and other allies, recognising Faslane's excellent deep water facilities and its geographical position.and no mention of an expectation that Scotland would pay billions of pounds - in whatever form - for UK-1 to build and transfer to a new facility elsewhere. Nope. In fact it goes on Negotiations on the maintenance of shared capabilities would not include nuclear weapons. This Scottish Government would make early agreement on the speediest safe removal of nuclear weapons a priority. This would be with a view to the removal of Trident within the first term of the Scottish Parliament following independence.The detailed process and timetable for removal would be a priority for negotiation between the Scottish Government and the Westminster Government. However we have noted the work undertaken by the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND), which suggests that Trident could be dismantled within two yearsIt's almost like they're saying: if you don't want to move your nuclear submarines we can always dismantle them.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Nov 24, 2022 21:59:01 GMT
and no mention of an expectation that Scotland would pay billions of pounds - in whatever form - for UK-1 to build and transfer to a new facility elsewhere. Nope. In fact it goes on Negotiations on the maintenance of shared capabilities would not include nuclear weapons. This Scottish Government would make early agreement on the speediest safe removal of nuclear weapons a priority. This would be with a view to the removal of Trident within the first term of the Scottish Parliament following independence.The detailed process and timetable for removal would be a priority for negotiation between the Scottish Government and the Westminster Government. However we have noted the work undertaken by the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND), which suggests that Trident could be dismantled within two yearsIt's almost like they're saying: if you don't want to move your nuclear submarines we can always dismantle them. So they won't be getting independence then.
And what is more objectionable is that back in the 80's there was a lot of support from within Scotland to have Faslane expanded to accommodate the trident refits (much to the chagrin of the people of Plymouth and Portsmouth, who were campaigning to have trident refits carried out south of the border).
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