keitha
Member of DD Central
2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
Posts: 3,889
Likes: 2,321
|
Trump
Apr 12, 2024 9:06:41 GMT
Post by keitha on Apr 12, 2024 9:06:41 GMT
What do you suggest NATO goes in all guns blazing? As said I don't think Ukraine can win Nobody thought Ukraine could hold out for two years. Those two years have exposed the weaknesses within Russia's military. All it would take is NATO members to actually deliver on their pledges of support, and Putin will be forced back. I agree about the huge "what next?" within Russia - Putin's paranoia has closed off all succession planning to prevent threats. Perhaps internal opposition will increase and force a climb-down or coup. personally I dread to think what will happen when Putin "expires" I believe we could have physical fighting, and not talking 1 on 1 for succession. as they said at the last election most of his opponents are dead, in prison or exile. I fear it will be another ex military hardman. It is possible that someone is quietly garnering support but ...
|
|
|
Post by captainconfident on Apr 12, 2024 9:25:31 GMT
And how is Trump going to do that? Let Russia have the three eastern oblasts with no consequences? ... I think you and we all know the answer to that question. The only way he can truly influence is to withdraw/stop all US military support to Ukr. And in doing so, seriously tip the balance of negotiating power to Putin. Putin will get to keep Crimea forever, and get the majority if not all of currently occupied territory. And the Ukrainians have to just suck it up. There is no other realistic option in which Trump can deliver on his promise. The alternative would be to flip the other way - threaten massive US intervention to drive Russia out - and that most definitely is not in his plans. Basically he is going to remove all Ukr options of self determination by removing support and offering Ukraine's head on a plate. Could he negotiate some form of withdrawal: possibly, but it would have to be extremely marginal as Putin needs to come away with the prize of the east, and Crimea's occupation de facto recognised. Yeah you remember that he Trump Plan for Peace in the Middle East (THE BEST PLAN) which was basically Israel should have all the land and the Palestinians should go away somewhere. Probable that new plan for Ukraine is of similar genius.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 4,920
Likes: 2,774
|
Trump
Apr 12, 2024 14:14:39 GMT
Post by michaelc on Apr 12, 2024 14:14:39 GMT
Nobody else is likely to save hundreds of thousands of lives in Ukraine. And how is Trump going to do that? Let Russia have the three eastern oblasts with no consequences? And if the "West" allows that, what message do you think that sends Putin? Where next? Where do you draw the line? You have expressed concern about the impact of immigration on UK, and the salience of this issue in terms of Brexit. What do you think will happen if Russia conquers Ukraine? How many millions of refugees will head west? If that happens what is left of Ukraine? What is left for the population who can't escape? It'll be grim. No apologies for language. If Trump wins, and cuts a deal with Putin selling Ukraine down the river, the value of your property in Kyiv will be zero. And you'll have a lot more extended family beating on your door. I don't have a magic wand. I don't have a solution. But letting Putin win is not the answer. Putin must lose. We live in a much, much more dangerous world than we did a mere ten years ago. I'm not that bothered about my own existence. I care a great deal about the children of my friends, and younger generations in general. The legacy we are leaving them is not a good one . Thank you for your heartfelt concern. If Putin cuts a deal that means all of Ukraine goes to Russia that is barely a deal and of course would mean me losing most/all of my property there. If he cuts a deal with Donbass and Crimea changing hands and the rest of Ukraine going to EU/Nato that is a totally different proposition. Most importantly it would mean saving literally 100,000s of lives. You say Putin must lose? Even when you know that means those people would be killed. What right do you have to be so passionate about it ? Unless we start a world war with even more loss of life and even more world wide destruction then I say we have no choice. He takes that land and "wins" the war. We meanwhile, along with Ukraine make sure this can never happen again. A N/S Korean style defensive line backed up with NATO and even some NATO troops along the border. Its not just the future hundreds of thousands of deaths its the millions whose lives are fked up because of this war.
|
|
adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 9,045
Likes: 4,841
|
Trump
Apr 12, 2024 14:36:30 GMT
Post by adrianc on Apr 12, 2024 14:36:30 GMT
If he cuts a deal with Donbass and Crimea changing hands and the rest of Ukraine going to EU/Nato staying as Ukraine that is a totally different proposition. Fixed that for you.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 4,920
Likes: 2,774
|
Trump
Apr 12, 2024 15:44:13 GMT
Post by michaelc on Apr 12, 2024 15:44:13 GMT
If he cuts a deal with Donbass and Crimea changing hands and the rest of Ukraine going to EU/Nato staying as Ukraine that is a totally different proposition. Fixed that for you. I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say but if the deal is that Ukraine remains "neutral" which in effect bars it from joining NATO, the EU, retaining massive armed forces and having foreign troops or equipment on its land then I would agree with you. That would be no deal at all as the same thing could well happen again and even if it doesn't the country would be bullied substantially by its larger brother.
|
|
angrysaveruk
Member of DD Central
Back and to the left..
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 655
|
Post by angrysaveruk on Apr 12, 2024 16:16:09 GMT
All these people who think Ukraine should fight to last Ukrainian because the government and their mouth pieces told them to think that should watch this - poor b****** being shipped off with very little chance of ever coming back. And yes that creepy guy they interview who is sending those young guys off to the front line is part of the extremist Azov regiment (which seems to have rebranded itself as the 3rd Assault Brigade) - coincidence?
|
|
agent69
Member of DD Central
Posts: 5,641
Likes: 4,213
|
Post by agent69 on Apr 12, 2024 16:17:19 GMT
Thank you for your heartfelt concern. If Putin cuts a deal ...... You mean the same sort of deal that Ukraine did with Russia after the break up of the Soviet Union. You know, the one where Russia guaranteed Ukraine's safety in return for Ukraine giving back nuclear weapons that Russia had stationed on their soil?
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 4,920
Likes: 2,774
|
Trump
Apr 12, 2024 16:21:39 GMT
Post by michaelc on Apr 12, 2024 16:21:39 GMT
Thank you for your heartfelt concern. If Putin cuts a deal ...... You mean the same sort of deal that Ukraine did with Russia after the break up of the Soviet Union. You know, the one where Russia guaranteed Ukraine's safety in return for Ukraine giving back nuclear weapons that Russia had stationed on their soil? No. Read my previous post.
|
|
adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 9,045
Likes: 4,841
|
Trump
Apr 12, 2024 16:54:42 GMT
Post by adrianc on Apr 12, 2024 16:54:42 GMT
I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say but if the deal is that Ukraine remains "neutral" which in effect bars it from joining NATO, the EU, retaining massive armed forces and having foreign troops or equipment on its land then I would agree with you. That would be no deal at all as the same thing could well happen again and even if it doesn't the country would be bullied substantially by its larger brother. Surely the choices are simple... 1. Be part of Russia. (Putin's preference)2. Be an independent country, able to do all the other things that every other independent country can do, such as pick and choose your own friends in the international community. (Ukraine's preference, and where they were before February 2022)You seem to be suggesting that a third option is the desirable outcome... 3. Be a semi-independent country - apart from the bits that are Russia - and not be allowed to do lots of things other independent countries can do, including being very restricted in who can be your friend. I'm not sure who that's a win for, except for Putin. It certainly doesn't seem to be much of one for Ukraine. The irony is that Ukraine was at the back of a very long queue to join NATO and EU, nowhere near meeting accession criteria for either, but has been fast-tracked thanks to Putin's illegal invasion. Sweden and Finland weren't bothered about NATO, either, yet are now both members as a direct result. You could almost view it as a bit of an own goal, really.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 4,920
Likes: 2,774
|
Trump
Apr 12, 2024 19:40:51 GMT
Post by michaelc on Apr 12, 2024 19:40:51 GMT
Surely the choices are simple... 1. Be part of Russia. (Putin's preference)2. Be an independent country, able to do all the other things that every other independent country can do, such as pick and choose your own friends in the international community. (Ukraine's preference, and where they were before February 2022)You seem to be suggesting that a third option is the desirable outcome...3. Be a semi-independent country - apart from the bits that are Russia - and not be allowed to do lots of things other independent countries can do, including being very restricted in who can be your friend. I'm not sure who that's a win for, except for Putin. It certainly doesn't seem to be much of one for Ukraine. The irony is that Ukraine was at the back of a very long queue to join NATO and EU, nowhere near meeting accession criteria for either, but has been fast-tracked thanks to Putin's illegal invasion. Sweden and Finland weren't bothered about NATO, either, yet are now both members as a direct result. You could almost view it as a bit of an own goal, really. I do not suggest a "lose" for Ukraine is the desirable outcome. The desirable outcome is borders back to how they were in 2014 and reparations. So we agree on that? So why are you making an argument where one doesn't exist? You can indeed argue with me about the lives of millions of Ukranians. Does your proposal involve slaughtering hundreds of thousands more people ?
|
|
|
Trump
Apr 22, 2024 20:53:18 GMT
Post by overthehill on Apr 22, 2024 20:53:18 GMT
A message from an ex-president elect who won the popular vote by 3 million to an ex-president who laundered money from russia.
|
|
|
Post by overthehill on Apr 24, 2024 16:52:09 GMT
Finding jurors who are not disaffected or conflicted is not going to be easy for someone who could end up the biggest criminal in American history.
|
|
adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 9,045
Likes: 4,841
|
Post by adrianc on Apr 24, 2024 17:03:15 GMT
I have a lawyer on the phone, says he wants to complain about defamation on behalf of dead ferrets...
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 4,920
Likes: 2,774
|
Trump
Apr 24, 2024 17:45:10 GMT
Post by michaelc on Apr 24, 2024 17:45:10 GMT
A message from an ex-president elect who won the popular vote by 3 million to an ex-president who laundered money from russia.
Trump is the most peaceful president in the US for many years. And why do you care more about internal US human rights anymore than you do about say Saudi Arabia or Congo or Yemen to name a few. Religious police. _Public_ executions by sword. Basically what we might refer to as middle ages justice. Noone cares about that. But you care about abortion rights. Actually I agree that abortion shouldn't be so restricted and probably we in the UK have it about right. But there are far, far worse things going on in the world and we can't police every country or government we don't like.
|
|
adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 9,045
Likes: 4,841
|
Trump
Apr 24, 2024 18:00:26 GMT
Post by adrianc on Apr 24, 2024 18:00:26 GMT
Trump is the most peaceful president in the US for many years. Could you explain what you mean, please? I don't. I think human rights should be universal, and should be universally respected. The difference is that we in the democratic west should be leading by example and helping to bring those countries up to our standard. Instead, the US (in particular) is sinking to their level. Although, tbf, we're having a good crack in the UK at the moment, too.
|
|