bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Oct 13, 2015 20:52:56 GMT
I hijacked another thread asking Butch Cassidy about his claim that he was earning 12% from other platforms, but I thought it better to start a new thread. I want established true P2P platforms, UK based, with a decent number* of loans per month of a reasonable size**. I already know about Thin Cats and Assetz Capital, with the last one failing on the number of loans per month. star dust suggested Saving Stream which will be true P2P soon, but isn't yet. I still think that a couple of big losses might take the platform down. Soon they are switching, and an email was circulated today informing us of new terms and conditions relating to converting some of the existing loans; all very encouraging. Funding Circle has some loans with yields above 12%, but their own expectations are that default rates will be quite high, and there is a 1% fee. Has anyone any experience with ablrate, FC or any other the others? * decent number is a somewhat hand waiving concept, I think at least 4, but ideally more loans per month, with the lower threshold only acceptable if expected returns are particularly high. ** I wouldn't want to be a significant part of any loan, nor do I want to have to 'fight' to get hold of some, so ideally loans would be £100k+, but a bit smaller would be okay. |
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Oct 13, 2015 23:44:00 GMT
About thirty or so years ago I played PBM game ("play by mail") called Rimworlds. Run out of New York by a heavily smoking not-quite-succeeded theatre director, within a year or two they got to the "modern", we could use dial up modems and txt files to dump our orders in and receive our results  . Space ships, crew, morale, role playing, exp points, evil enemies (who thought we were evil enemies), different races, etc etc etc. And they were all "other real people", who had different views for varying reasons. An interesting experience for a twelve year old . There was a "Traders alliance". It was called TNSTFL. It stood for "There's No Such Thing as Free Lunch". Fun times . |
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Oct 13, 2015 23:45:43 GMT
I hijacked another thread asking Butch Cassidy about his claim that he was earning 12% from other platforms, but I thought it better to start a new thread. I want established true P2P platforms, UK based, with a decent number* of loans per month of a reasonable size**. I already know about Thin Cats and Assetz Capital, with the last one failing on the number of loans per month. star dust suggested Saving Stream which will be true P2P soon, but isn't yet. I still think that a couple of big losses might take the platform down. Soon they are switching, and an email was circulated today informing us of new terms and conditions relating to converting some of the existing loans; all very encouraging. Funding Circle has some loans with yields above 12%, but their own expectations are that default rates will be quite high, and there is a 1% fee. Has anyone any experience with ablrate, FC or any other the others? * decent number is a somewhat hand waiving concept, I think at least 4, but ideally more loans per month, with the lower threshold only acceptable if expected returns are particularly high. ** I wouldn't want to be a significant part of any loan, nor do I want to have to 'fight' to get hold of some, so ideally loans would be £100k+, but a bit smaller would be okay. Ablrate loan flow is currently more glacial than AC. Four loans last month after little previously following platform (successful) relaunch but 2 of those were gone in 60 seconds sub 100k. Much like AC we await a decent loan pipeline including some planes which are their specific MO- SM with premiums/discounts - very engaged with lenders FC - abandon ship seems to be the general consensus following the introduction of fixed rates, chance of getting anything decent is limited from what I can tell (I abandoned SME on platform sometime ago), quick skim of FC board should give you an idea. Many FC lenders migrating to Lending Crowd but not used personally. Funding K night - similiar to FC but still auctions, deal flow not great MoneyThing - no fees 12% on pawn & cars, limited pipeline & blink & you'll miss em - not P2P - no SM - very engaged with lenders FundingSecure- no fees - 12-13% property, assorted pawn, art, cars etc 6 months (though often extended) - decent flow, small ones whizz out but property might be of interest and meet your criteria (often have bonus for 10k+ bids) - management of property default untested - no SM - bid limits on smaller loans FS property & SS when changed seem to be the most suitable against your criteria
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upland
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Post by upland on Oct 14, 2015 6:41:30 GMT
Excellent thread bigfoot12 , this sort of subject needs constant debate as I think that the game changes constantly.
I have an FC account , mainly for secured property. I am letting the unsecured dwindle. It still causes losses that reduce the overall return. The higher risk bands I have never tried but risk adjusted returns probably behave like my current holdings and
I like their size / gravitas. They have institutional money.
I like AC but the deal flow is low. There is an SM which makes it for me. I am hopeful that they will develop well. They also have institutional money.
I have just started with FS and MT , great fun but deals often really go quickly. Building up any sizeable holding will take ages and I am not sure that I will as they are pretty small affairs. I have looked into Unbolted and may soon try , it should be easier to build up a holding but they are small. There is probably as much to fear from the platform as the investments.
Looming FCA regulation costs worry me and platform viability , some gravitas is good in my view. I use the Alt Fi volume graphs to ascertain size etc. The institutional effects are not yet stable and I think its hard to figure out how it will affect rates in a few years. 11+ % may be come the haunt of tiny sites.
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Post by Butch Cassidy on Oct 14, 2015 7:26:58 GMT
I hijacked another thread asking Butch Cassidy about his claim that he was earning 12% from other platforms, but I thought it better to start a new thread. I want established true P2P platforms, UK based, with a decent number* of loans per month of a reasonable size**. I already know about Thin Cats and Assetz Capital, with the last one failing on the number of loans per month. star dust suggested Saving Stream which will be true P2P soon, but isn't yet. I still think that a couple of big losses might take the platform down. Soon they are switching, and an email was circulated today informing us of new terms and conditions relating to converting some of the existing loans; all very encouraging. Funding Circle has some loans with yields above 12%, but their own expectations are that default rates will be quite high, and there is a 1% fee. Has anyone any experience with ablrate, FC or any other the others? * decent number is a somewhat hand waiving concept, I think at least 4, but ideally more loans per month, with the lower threshold only acceptable if expected returns are particularly high. ** I wouldn't want to be a significant part of any loan, nor do I want to have to 'fight' to get hold of some, so ideally loans would be £100k+, but a bit smaller would be okay. Ablrate loan flow is currently more glacial than AC. Four loans last month after little previously following platform (successful) relaunch but 2 of those were gone in 60 seconds sub 100k. Much like AC we await a decent loan pipeline including some planes which are their specific MO- SM with premiums/discounts - very engaged with lenders FC - abandon ship seems to be the general consensus following the introduction of fixed rates, chance of getting anything decent is limited from what I can tell (I abandoned SME on platform sometime ago), quick skim of FC board should give you an idea. Many FC lenders migrating to Lending Crowd but not used personally. Funding K night - similiar to FC but still auctions, deal flow not great MoneyThing - no fees 12% on pawn & cars, limited pipeline & blink & you'll miss em - not P2P - no SM - very engaged with lenders FundingSecure- no fees - 12-13% property, assorted pawn, art, cars etc 6 months (though often extended) - decent flow, small ones whizz out but property might be of interest and meet your criteria (often have bonus for 10k+ bids) - management of property default untested - no SM - bid limits on smaller loans FS property & SS when changed seem to be the most suitable against your criteria ilmoro has covered most of them but to recap; FC band D & E are fixed at upto 18.1%, LC has an auction style upto 16%+ (both have fees of 1% but easily beat AC rates), SS 12% fixed no fees (plus occasionally CB bonus), MT 12% fixed, Mintos is Euro based but rates upto 19.9%, Abirate 14% on containers - Those are just the ones I use personally, albeit deal flow is often slow/restricted but that can grow with time. They all have pros & cons attached but ultimately net return after defaults will be a major deciding factor. TC,FS,FK etc I don't have experience with.
The general trend (FC, AC , Bondora) seems to be to build the platform with lenders who want high risk/reward then as demand outstrips supply introduce ever more complicated credit scoring models & IT improvements that can be used to justify why lenders should accept lower returns for better quality loans (hence the flood of A+ & A loans currently on FC) to finally end up with a black box investment offering much lower returns often with a provision fund attached. I completely understand from a commercial standpoint that institutional money & "dumb retail" money are both larger & easier to accommodate, however, still think initial adopters ought to be treated better, as the platform wouldn't be in this position without them.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 8:40:25 GMT
I think we should be able to start defining when a portal is beginning to go "off", hence we would avoid. Going off is a vague thought so I would see failure as being
1) Going black box (think the shoe-shop event horizon) Douglas Adams
2) Going bust (think the charity shop event horizon) when every shop in town goes bust and becomes a charity shop
1) is indicated when a) IT gets too complicated, b) loan stream starts to dry up, c) institutions start getting involved, d) retail cash struggles to be invested e) rates drop
2) is indicated when a) rates go up above 12%, b) defaults start to rise, c) management goes very quiet, d) IT spend falls off
Interesting to see that all portals show entrepreneurial skills but only a few seem to use lean-manufacturing.
I suspect that the market is going to end up with
A) some big players operating the black box method,
B) a bunch of smaller pawn brokers operating over 6 to 18 months with low LTVs and
C) larger loans at 12% for up to 3 years backed by riskier assets and higher LTVs
Of the ones I work with RS/FC/AC are going "off" via route (A), MT/FS/SS are staying "on" via routes (B&C) and should be of some interest to you.
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ben
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Post by ben on Oct 14, 2015 11:35:03 GMT
For the high percentage loans I use Funding Secure, Saving Stream and recently Money Thing although I do not have a lot in any of these and class these as I would class high risk share investments.
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Post by webbski9 on Oct 14, 2015 16:45:26 GMT
Guys
MT,SS both offer 12% based on different assets .FS also.Deal flows poor on MT,but great customer relations .SS all about Property.
Abroad,Twino and Mintos will give 12% all day long and..with buy-backs.But ,of course,both being Euro denominated,there is a currency risk.And is the buy-back guarantee really proven ? I think so.
Also,it might not be 12% ,but eMoneyUnion will provide you with 10%+ ,with a Provision Fund and a great,fluid SM.Why bother with Ratesetter or Z?
For the more daring investors...Elevate ...small ,very small,but interesting ,as is Property Partners.
Ablrate is so different but a very good rate of interest with a very unusual class of asset.
FC,FK,AC , Thin Cats and Wellesley have their followers but ,hey,look to the aforementioned for the way forward.IMPO.
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bjorn
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Post by bjorn on Oct 14, 2015 17:20:01 GMT
...small ,very small,but interesting ,as is Property Partners. Property Partner have had nearly £10m invested. I reckon that makes them bigger (by that metric) than nearly all the up-and-coming platforms you mentioned above with the exception of SS. Certainly their growth rate is very high given they only launched around Feb this year. They claim 13% average return although this is heavily dependent on capital growth. The yields (i.e., the dependable part of the return) are more like 2.5%-3.5%. I think their platform looks good, they have top-tier VC backing and I think they'll probably do well among property investment platforms (to the "gravitas" point). I just wish they'd do something other than low yield properties in London.
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Oct 14, 2015 18:41:16 GMT
Property Partner have had nearly £10m invested. I reckon that makes them bigger (by that metric) than nearly all the up-and-coming platforms you mentioned above with the exception of SS. Certainly their growth rate is very high given they only launched around Feb this year. They claim 13% average return although this is heavily dependent on capital growth. The yields (i.e., the dependable part of the return) are more like 2.5%-3.5%. I think their platform looks good, they have top-tier VC backing and I think they'll probably do well among property investment platforms (to the "gravitas" point). I just wish they'd do something other than low yield properties in London. These do look better than some of their competition, but they all seem to suffer from excessive tax because of the SPV. The SPV will pay 18% tax on the capital gain and then you will still be liable for the gain as well (possibly within your allowance). From a tax point of view, buying a property fund looks much better.
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stevio
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Post by stevio on Oct 14, 2015 18:43:45 GMT
...small ,very small,but interesting ,as is Property Partners. Property Partner have had nearly £10m invested. I reckon that makes them bigger (by that metric) than nearly all the up-and-coming platforms you mentioned above with the exception of SS. Certainly their growth rate is very high given they only launched around Feb this year. They claim 13% average return although this is heavily dependent on capital growth. The yields (i.e., the dependable part of the return) are more like 2.5%-3.5%. I think their platform looks good, they have top-tier VC backing and I think they'll probably do well among property investment platforms (to the "gravitas" point). I just wish they'd do something other than low yield properties in London. Looks like they set up an Ltd and take 2% upfront fee and 10% for management and I presume no mortgage. Then pay you through dividends. You could do this yourself if you had the money or invest in BTL via your own Ltd. Be aware that the dividend tax is changing next April, so you may get an unexpected tax bill here How do yo work out your return?
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Oct 14, 2015 19:25:16 GMT
...build the platform with lenders who want high risk/reward then ... lower returns ... think initial adopters ought to be treated better, as the platform wouldn't be in this position without them.
I think that you have to be a risk seeker to be one of the first investors in a new platform. It is not a surprise that they start off with high rates. A platform would have to offer me something quite new to attract me early (as Ratesetter did with the provision fund). One of the few things Zopa got right is zero fees for life for the earliest adopters, and 0.5% fees for the next wave (including me). I still have a little bit with them.
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Oct 14, 2015 20:12:33 GMT
There's No Such Thing as Free Lunch So the question is what price should lunch be? A quick look at bridging loans suggests that I would be charged at least 2% up front and then 1.25% - 1.5% per month so at the higher end of that range something like 21.9% per year. If I was developing rather than offering security over a completed asset my rate would be even higher. Obviously not all of the platforms are in bridging finance, nonetheless, many are financing 6-18 month property loans; are some offering finance at too low a rate, or are they taking too big a share? Or is the cost of the admin, finding the borrower, and the regulation, worth more than the cost of the capital? I don't know.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Oct 15, 2015 3:07:07 GMT
Property Partner have had nearly £10m invested. I reckon that makes them bigger (by that metric) than nearly all the up-and-coming platforms you mentioned above with the exception of SS. Certainly their growth rate is very high given they only launched around Feb this year. They claim 13% average return although this is heavily dependent on capital growth. The yields (i.e., the dependable part of the return) are more like 2.5%-3.5%. I think their platform looks good, they have top-tier VC backing and I think they'll probably do well among property investment platforms (to the "gravitas" point). I just wish they'd do something other than low yield properties in London. Looks like they set up an Ltd and take 2% upfront fee and 10% for management and I presume no mortgage. Then pay you through dividends. You could do this yourself if you had the money or invest in BTL via your own Ltd. This sounds very similar to what The House Crowd do, except they're buying in the north where prices are lower and yields are higher. Their offering info suggests they think it's possible to achieve returns in the high teens before they take their 25% share -- they don't take an annual management fee -- leaving their investors with maybe 12-13%. That, however, depends on property price increases and minimal maintenance/upkeep expenses. The former assumption is rather uncertain, and the latter strikes me as optimistic, though if they've started with a newly refurbished property perhaps it's more possible than I realise. They do think they can provide a dividend of 5-6% gross while they operate the building so that's encouraging. They've done over 150 projects since they started, so they must have over £10M invested. And they've sold very few so far -- I'd guess no more than five -- so their track record on sales is nil. Disclosure: I have invested in a number of their projects. I've also invested in both of their offerings of shares in THC itself.
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Oct 15, 2015 7:01:50 GMT
This sounds very similar to what The House Crowd do, except they're buying in the north where prices are lower and yields are higher. Their offering info suggests they think it's possible to achieve returns in the high teens before they take their 25% share -- they don't take an annual management fee -- leaving their investors with maybe 12-13%. That, however, depends on property price increases and minimal maintenance/upkeep expenses. The former assumption is rather uncertain, and the latter strikes me as optimistic, though if they've started with a newly refurbished property perhaps it's more possible than I realise. They do think they can provide a dividend of 5-6% gross while they operate the building so that's encouraging. They've done over 150 projects since they started, so they must have over £10M invested. And they've sold very few so far -- I'd guess no more than five -- so their track record on sales is nil. Disclosure: I have invested in a number of their projects. I've also invested in both of their offerings of shares in THC itself. The house crowd tend to report numbers in strange ways, so they will call a 70% return over 5 years 14% per year, when it is 11.2%. I invested in a few projects, but haven't since I realised I had misunderstood how costs and charges are apportioned. They have changed their model since then. Same problem with tax.
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