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Post by mrclondon on Jan 25, 2016 23:13:43 GMT
This new managed portfolio which is due to go live on Wednesday is ELECTRONICS not jewellery / watches.
AFAIK all previous electronics portfolios have been clearly identified as such. MoneyThing - was this a deliberate or accidental omission ?
I'm sure I will not be the only lender that does not want to lend against the electronics portfolios, and would prefer them to be easily identifiable.
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Jan 25, 2016 23:29:32 GMT
This new managed portfolio which is due to go live on Wednesday is ELECTRONICS not jewellery / watches.
AFAIK all previous electronics portfolios have been clearly identified as such. MoneyThing - was this a deliberate or accidental omission ?
I'm sure I will not be the only lender that does not want to lend against the electronics portfolios, and would prefer them to be easily identifiable. Has some non-electonics in it according to Ed p2pindependentforum.com/post/87671/thread
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webwiz
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Post by webwiz on Jan 26, 2016 7:55:38 GMT
This new managed portfolio which is due to go live on Wednesday is ELECTRONICS not jewellery / watches.
AFAIK all previous electronics portfolios have been clearly identified as such. MoneyThing - was this a deliberate or accidental omission ?
I'm sure I will not be the only lender that does not want to lend against the electronics portfolios, and would prefer them to be easily identifiable. Can you elaborate on why you do not want to lend against the electronics portfolios? CS guarantee them so ISTM that the only risk of a loss is if CS go bust in which case other portfolios will not be worth much either due to the cost of collection and disposal. Or am I missing something?
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Post by MoneyThing on Jan 26, 2016 9:52:29 GMT
Morning,
Now updated to say 'electronics'.
[We were originally going to omit the electronics in the description as the portfolio is not exclusively electronics (circa 90% electronics).]
Regards,
Ed
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Post by mrclondon on Jan 26, 2016 17:17:18 GMT
This new managed portfolio which is due to go live on Wednesday is ELECTRONICS not jewellery / watches.
AFAIK all previous electronics portfolios have been clearly identified as such. MoneyThing - was this a deliberate or accidental omission ?
I'm sure I will not be the only lender that does not want to lend against the electronics portfolios, and would prefer them to be easily identifiable. Can you elaborate on why you do not want to lend against the electronics portfolios? CS guarantee them so ISTM that the only risk of a loss is if CS go bust in which case other portfolios will not be worth much either due to the cost of collection and disposal. Or am I missing something?
If CS go bust then MT takes possession of all the underlying assets from all the portfolios ... which by now must run into the thousands if not tens of thousands of items.
Jewellery & watches - don't depreciate to any significant extent and a majority of items will sell eventually. The scrap gold value of applicable items is decent % of the value. Many smaller auction houses up and down the country would be quite happy to take a dollop of items, and present for auction. Recovery of somewhere around 50% of value within 12 months seems to me to be a not unreasonable prospect.
Electronics - depreciate with alarming rapidity as new models are released. Ascribed values already seem high (I recently bought a Samsung 7" tablet for 70% of the value of an earlier much inferior model as valued by CS 2 weeks earlier). Main outlet is ebay, which is labour intensive given all items will have to be tested before listing otherwise they have to (ebay rules for business traders) be marked as "untested for spares / repairs only" and as such would achieve at best 5% of the ascribed value. My understanding is CS has workshop facilities for preparing items for sale which clearly wouldn't be available if CS are no longer trading. On another thread someone commented that ebay disposal is probably too time consuming for MT, and hence a trade buyer would be sought - IMO unlikely to achieve more than 10% of ascribed value implying a hefty capital loss to lenders. Failure to take disposal action quickly would mean many items would depreciate to worthless before they sold.
So in summary my contention is that auction houses would assist with the effort of disposal of jewellery and watches whereas the electronics would have to be disposed of to a trade buyer for small fraction of the value.
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oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Jan 26, 2016 17:29:40 GMT
I would definitely like MT to avoid mixing CS items in a single portfolio. I will not invest in mixed portfolios, but will invest in jewellery/gold/watch managed portfolios, and a very limited number of electronics managed portfolios.
Can MT please confirm that only jewellery/gold/watches will be used to replenish earlier portfolios sold as such. Ditto for electronics.
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Post by pepperpot on Jan 26, 2016 17:51:41 GMT
What's the reasoning behind "Main outlet is ebay". I would have thought the shops would provide much of the sales with ebay being a secondary (or at least complimentary) route. Otherwise the shops could be a heck of a lot smaller, pretty much just a trade counter type front and a back room/warehouse. Cumulatively they have a lot of retail space to utilise.
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webwiz
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Post by webwiz on Jan 26, 2016 17:58:13 GMT
What's the reasoning behind "Main outlet is ebay". I would have thought the shops would provide much of the sales with ebay being a secondary (or at least complimentary) route. Otherwise the shops could be a heck of a lot smaller, pretty much just a trade counter type front and a back room/warehouse. Cumulatively they have a lot of retail space to utilise. He is talking about the scenario where CS have gone bust.
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Post by mrclondon on Jan 26, 2016 18:00:31 GMT
What's the reasoning behind "Main outlet is ebay". I would have thought the shops would provide much of the sales with ebay being a secondary (or at least complimentary) route. Otherwise the shops could be a heck of a lot smaller, pretty much just a trade counter type front and a back room/warehouse. Cumulatively they have a lot of retail space to utilise. If CS have ceased to trade ... there are no shops. And CS are no longer the holder of the security ... MT is on our behalf.
My gut feel is it is the shops, or more precisely the types of customers that frequent those shops that supports the apparently high valuations ascribed by CS. So yes, the shops are an important part of the CS model.
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webwiz
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Post by webwiz on Jan 26, 2016 18:02:48 GMT
Can you elaborate on why you do not want to lend against the electronics portfolios? CS guarantee them so ISTM that the only risk of a loss is if CS go bust in which case other portfolios will not be worth much either due to the cost of collection and disposal. Or am I missing something?
If CS go bust then MT takes possession of all the underlying assets from all the portfolios ... which by now must run into the thousands if not tens of thousands of items.
Jewellery & watches - don't depreciate to any significant extent and a majority of items will sell eventually. The scrap gold value of applicable items is decent % of the value. Many smaller auction houses up and down the country would be quite happy to take a dollop of items, and present for auction. Recovery of somewhere around 50% of value within 12 months seems to me to be a not unreasonable prospect.
Electronics - depreciate with alarming rapidity as new models are released. Ascribed values already seem high (I recently bought a Samsung 7" tablet for 70% of the value of an earlier much inferior model as valued by CS 2 weeks earlier). Main outlet is ebay, which is labour intensive given all items will have to be tested before listing otherwise they have to (ebay rules for business traders) be marked as "untested for spares / repairs only" and as such would achieve at best 5% of the ascribed value. My understanding is CS has workshop facilities for preparing items for sale which clearly wouldn't be available if CS are no longer trading. On another thread someone commented that ebay disposal is probably too time consuming for MT, and hence a trade buyer would be sought - IMO unlikely to achieve more than 10% of ascribed value implying a hefty capital loss to lenders. Failure to take disposal action quickly would mean many items would depreciate to worthless before they sold.
So in summary my contention is that auction houses would assist with the effort of disposal of jewellery and watches whereas the electronics would have to be disposed of to a trade buyer for small fraction of the value.
That makes sense. But I would advise lenders on all loans but especially electronics to treat their loans as unsecured by the asset, and reliant on the ability of CS to make up losses themselves ie it's a bet that CS will not go bust during the term of the loan.
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daveb4
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Post by daveb4 on Jan 27, 2016 6:53:41 GMT
I normally try to be positive BUT
If they go bust (in normal circumstances) the chances are the shops, employees, creditors and more specifically administrators will take a large chunk of any profits left as mentioned above. I think the shops are the issue here rather than other sites that just work out of an office.
Also to reduce the administrator costs, ideally they will be offloading items very quickly but agree prices may get hit heavily.
Not sure if the shops are separate to P2P site? would possibly make a difference in liquidation issue? doubt it as debateably this is the company's advantage?
Some sites though advise that we the lenders may have some priorities. Not sure how it works here?
Therefore Electronics not that much different to anything else on this site because real potential losses all go down to the site going into liquidation or not. Some sites are potentially better than others but yet to be proved!
Don't forget 12% interest! - you could play safer and get 4% from other sites or 0.1% from your bank!
As mentioned look at unsecured, spread risk over number of deals and sites as always.
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Post by mrclondon on Jan 27, 2016 13:04:01 GMT
I normally try to be positive BUT If they go bust (in normal circumstances) the chances are the shops, employees, creditors and more specifically administrators will take a large chunk of any profits left as mentioned above. I think the shops are the issue here rather than other sites that just work out of an office. Also to reduce the administrator costs, ideally they will be offloading items very quickly but agree prices may get hit heavily. Not sure if the shops are separate to P2P site? would possibly make a difference in liquidation issue? doubt it as debateably this is the company's advantage? Some sites though advise that we the lenders may have some priorities. Not sure how it works here? Therefore Electronics not that much different to anything else on this site because real potential losses all go down to the site going into liquidation or not. Some sites are potentially better than others but yet to be proved! Don't forget 12% interest! - you could play safer and get 4% from other sites or 0.1% from your bank! As mentioned look at unsecured, spread risk over number of deals and sites as always.
paul123 is correct if CS go bust then the assets in the MT portfolios are not available to the Administrators/Liquidators of CS but are claimed by MT who are then responsible for realising value from them.
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daveb4
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Post by daveb4 on Jan 27, 2016 15:10:12 GMT
mrclondon - thanks for the confirmation - i am sure will make us all more comfortable
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Post by ladywhitenap on Jan 27, 2016 20:17:14 GMT
I'm rather surprised to see that about 10% of this loan remains available some 4 hours after the start of the loan. It rather supports the decision by MT so set the limit at 0.5% rather than the traditional 1%.
At least potential lenders who were working (office hours) have had their chance to invest on this one.
LW
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ben
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Post by ben on Jan 27, 2016 20:46:45 GMT
I'm rather surprised to see that about 10% of this loan remains available some 4 hours after the start of the loan. It rather supports the decision by MT so set the limit at 0.5% rather than the traditional 1%. At least potential lenders who were working (office hours) have had their chance to invest on this one. LW Also I think the electronic portfolios are the least popular ones as the value of items change that quick
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