agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 16, 2018 9:57:22 GMT
If the were very wealthy people from Monaco why would they need a loan from MT? Asset rich ..... But probably not as rich as advertised.
I do struggle to understand why these supposed HNWI's can't free up money from their assets to avoid paying 15%+ on P2P platforms.
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keystone
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Post by keystone on Jun 16, 2018 10:13:29 GMT
If the were very wealthy people from Monaco why would they need a loan from MT? Ill-gotten gains?
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averageguy
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Post by averageguy on Jun 16, 2018 10:14:12 GMT
But probably not as rich as advertised.
I do struggle to understand why these supposed HNWI's can't free up money from their assets to avoid paying 15%+ on P2P platforms.
Richer they are the tighter
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Post by tackerbear on Jun 16, 2018 16:57:15 GMT
Or perhaps they are not “rich” at all and not residents of Monaco and this financing has been their last and only source of capital. Expensive capital at that as anyone who is seriously in the business of developing commercial property would well understand. These people have “form” including the ongoing administration of their last corporate vehicle which ended in tears and I am just surprised they’ve not been found out before now. Just what the personal guarantee of the sole director might be worth to this security package may be worth is anyone’s guess but it’s sure to disappoint. Perhaps Toto would care to comment? He rather than she would know! The end of the road is nigh....and about time too!
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Post by westcountry on Jun 17, 2018 12:30:47 GMT
MoneyThing, should this loan default, where does the 2+ months overdue interest rank, please? Would it rank ahead of the capital of the second/third charge loans, or would the capital of all charge holders have to be paid in full before the overdue interest on the 1st charge is paid, please?
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Jun 17, 2018 16:44:31 GMT
MoneyThing , should this loan default, where does the 2+ months overdue interest rank, please? Would it rank ahead of the capital of the second/third charge loans, or would the capital of all charge holders have to be paid in full before the overdue interest on the 1st charge is paid, please? As the MT loan is secured by a first charge & is for all sums owed including interest (incl default without limitation) then ISTM that everything ranks ahead of the third party 2nd/3rd charge loans.
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Post by tackerbear on Jun 20, 2018 0:49:51 GMT
Moneything. So how long is a short period of forebeance? It would seem you view short term as something like at least 5 weeks? its been more than a week since the last update and supposedly you were to be in daily contact with the borrower and yet we've heard not a single word on what you learned over the past seven days since the last update! How is that possible?? So how do you explain that in truth the "forbearance" of which you speak is more than 5 weeks and despite its critical importance to both the viability of this investment and the continued marketing of the invitation to invest in this loan, whatever you know about this bizarre situation remains known only to you? according to your update of more than a month ago, you said the Borrower had undertaken to bring the outstanding loan interests (both loans) up to to date and even (generously) to pre-pay an additional month's interest. Today that means 3 months' interest or about £90,000 of interest. You say that you have seen evidence that these people are making efforts to raise the interest they owe! what does that look like and how do you accept such representations with any credibility? the deafening silence on these "updates" is astonishing and one can only assume that's because the Borrower can't tell you (and therefore us) anything credible about their plans to meet the outstanding interest let alone complete the development (With money they seem not to have or be able to raise) suggesting that the valuation of this property to which you regularly refer, is a fiction! With the property unfinished and with additional borrowings secured against the property now totalling more than £2,800,000 and an "iffy" vacant property valuation of a remarkable £3,800,000, the property LTV now sits at more than 75% so how does anyone seriously think this property can be refinanced to repay all of the loans now secured against the property...especially with this Borrower's track record of non-performance?? and the repayment of the 2nd and 3rd secured loans looms large with only a month or two before those loans become repayable and they amount to more than £300,000 so if the Borrower can't find £90,000 of overdue interest, seriously, where are they going to find the entire £2,800,000 of aggregate loans when the loans all implode at once? i must be missing something here as none of this makes sense to me and would welcome Toto's and/or Moneything's explanation of what I am missing! Perhaps a long overdue update might help?
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averageguy
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Post by averageguy on Jun 20, 2018 9:11:46 GMT
Moneything. So how long is a short period of forebeance? It would seem you view short term as something like at least 5 weeks? its been more than a week since the last update and supposedly you were to be in daily contact with the borrower and yet we've heard not a single word on what you learned over the past seven days since the last update! How is that possible?? So how do you explain that in truth the "forbearance" of which you speak is more than 5 weeks and despite its critical importance to both the viability of this investment and the continued marketing of the invitation to invest in this loan, whatever you know about this bizarre situation remains known only to you? according to your update of more than a month ago, you said the Borrower had undertaken to bring the outstanding loan interests (both loans) up to to date and even (generously) to pre-pay an additional month's interest. Today that means 3 months' interest or about £90,000 of interest. You say that you have seen evidence that these people are making efforts to raise the interest they owe! what does that look like and how do you accept such representations with any credibility? the deafening silence on these "updates" is astonishing and one can only assume that's because the Borrower can't tell you (and therefore us) anything credible about their plans to meet the outstanding interest let alone complete the development (With money they seem not to have or be able to raise) suggesting that the valuation of this property to which you regularly refer, is a fiction! With the property unfinished and with additional borrowings secured against the property now totalling more than £2,800,000 and an "iffy" vacant property valuation of a remarkable £3,800,000, the property LTV now sits at more than 75% so how does anyone seriously think this property can be refinanced to repay all of the loans now secured against the property...especially with this Borrower's track record of non-performance?? and the repayment of the 2nd and 3rd secured loans looms large with only a month or two before those loans become repayable and they amount to more than £300,000 so if the Borrower can't find £90,000 of overdue interest, seriously, where are they going to find the entire £2,800,000 of aggregate loans when the loans all implode at once? i must be missing something here as none of this makes sense to me and would welcome Toto's and/or Moneything's explanation of what I am missing! Perhaps a long overdue update might help? Last update was 8 days ago...is it really long overdue?
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Post by funkymonkey on Jun 20, 2018 9:18:42 GMT
Moneything. So how long is a short period of forebeance? It would seem you view short term as something like at least 5 weeks? its been more than a week since the last update and supposedly you were to be in daily contact with the borrower and yet we've heard not a single word on what you learned over the past seven days since the last update! How is that possible?? So how do you explain that in truth the "forbearance" of which you speak is more than 5 weeks and despite its critical importance to both the viability of this investment and the continued marketing of the invitation to invest in this loan, whatever you know about this bizarre situation remains known only to you? according to your update of more than a month ago, you said the Borrower had undertaken to bring the outstanding loan interests (both loans) up to to date and even (generously) to pre-pay an additional month's interest. Today that means 3 months' interest or about £90,000 of interest. You say that you have seen evidence that these people are making efforts to raise the interest they owe! what does that look like and how do you accept such representations with any credibility? the deafening silence on these "updates" is astonishing and one can only assume that's because the Borrower can't tell you (and therefore us) anything credible about their plans to meet the outstanding interest let alone complete the development (With money they seem not to have or be able to raise) suggesting that the valuation of this property to which you regularly refer, is a fiction! With the property unfinished and with additional borrowings secured against the property now totalling more than £2,800,000 and an "iffy" vacant property valuation of a remarkable £3,800,000, the property LTV now sits at more than 75% so how does anyone seriously think this property can be refinanced to repay all of the loans now secured against the property...especially with this Borrower's track record of non-performance?? and the repayment of the 2nd and 3rd secured loans looms large with only a month or two before those loans become repayable and they amount to more than £300,000 so if the Borrower can't find £90,000 of overdue interest, seriously, where are they going to find the entire £2,800,000 of aggregate loans when the loans all implode at once? i must be missing something here as none of this makes sense to me and would welcome Toto's and/or Moneything's explanation of what I am missing! Perhaps a long overdue update might help? It's only 8 days since the last update, not that "long overdue" in my opinion. I'd rather have a meaningful update rather than an update just for the sake of it
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withnell
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Post by withnell on Jun 20, 2018 9:59:13 GMT
It's only 8 days since the last update, not that "long overdue" in my opinion. I'd rather have a meaningful update rather than an update just for the sake of it Agreed. MoneyThing provide some of the most comprehensive updates of all the platforms, and long may it continue. The fact that a 2nd and then 3rd charge have been registered suggests to me that there is value in the asset (or the other funders wouldn't have proceeded even at a high rate); cash flow issues due to delays aren't uncommon in large projects, especially with a financing cost as high as this one
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jlend
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Post by jlend on Jun 20, 2018 16:35:19 GMT
It's only 8 days since the last update, not that "long overdue" in my opinion. I'd rather have a meaningful update rather than an update just for the sake of it Agreed. MoneyThing provide some of the most comprehensive updates of all the platforms, and long may it continue. The fact that a 2nd and then 3rd charge have been registered suggests to me that there is value in the asset (or the other funders wouldn't have proceeded even at a high rate); cash flow issues due to delays aren't uncommon in large projects, especially with a financing cost as high as this one Plus i agree with MT that the best approach right now at least is to give the borrower time to finish and open the business. It should be worth more when it is open. It is what it is now...
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jsmill
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Post by jsmill on Jun 21, 2018 8:45:06 GMT
Agreed. MoneyThing provide some of the most comprehensive updates of all the platforms, and long may it continue. The fact that a 2nd and then 3rd charge have been registered suggests to me that there is value in the asset (or the other funders wouldn't have proceeded even at a high rate); cash flow issues due to delays aren't uncommon in large projects, especially with a financing cost as high as this one Plus i agree with MT that the best approach right now at least is to give the borrower time to finish and open the business. It should be worth more when it is open. It is what it is now... That only makes sense jlend if it is plausible that the borrower can still actually achieve this. Given the obvious cash flow issues and the pending penalty rates on the additional charges I don't see any evidence that he actually can. As I have pointed out before we still have no update from MT on whether the tenants that were lined up initially are still committed to it. If they are not then even assuming the borrower can complete the project is he isn't going to be able to establish a trading history before drowning under interest payments? Again, the evidence suggests not.
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jlend
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Post by jlend on Jun 21, 2018 10:22:06 GMT
Plus i agree with MT that the best approach right now at least is to give the borrower time to finish and open the business. It should be worth more when it is open. It is what it is now... That only makes sense jlend if it is plausible that the borrower can still actually achieve this. Given the obvious cash flow issues and the pending penalty rates on the additional charges I don't see any evidence that he actually can. As I have pointed out before we still have no update from MT on whether the tenants that were lined up initially are still committed to it. If they are not then even assuming the borrower can complete the project is he isn't going to be able to establish a trading history before drowning under interest payments? Again, the evidence suggests not. I still think it is in lenders interest to give the borrower more time to get the business open in line with MT so it is generating an income and can either be refinanced or sold or late interest paid back over time. The alternatives involving a sale now of a partially completed unopened site are not easy as we have seen from other developments across many platforms. I dont believe there are any easy fixes for the borrower or MT at the moment. Hindsight is easy... having an MT appointed QS to oversee the development would have been good, especially for such a large loan and some early slippages.
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Jun 21, 2018 10:35:58 GMT
That only makes sense jlend if it is plausible that the borrower can still actually achieve this. Given the obvious cash flow issues and the pending penalty rates on the additional charges I don't see any evidence that he actually can. As I have pointed out before we still have no update from MT on whether the tenants that were lined up initially are still committed to it. If they are not then even assuming the borrower can complete the project is he isn't going to be able to establish a trading history before drowning under interest payments? Again, the evidence suggests not. Hindsight is easy... having an MT appointed QS to oversee the development would have been good, especially for such a large loan and some early slippages. Agree in general, but I'm not sure a QS would have been much use here. They were due to be opening in less than one month from loan inception, suggesting just some polishing off to be doing. The issue with this loan from the outset is that it was an ambitious project (i.e. high risk of default) coupled with a valuation that is irrelevant in a default situation (i.e. probable low rate of recovery). Those factors combined always made it a poor value proposition, regardless of whether it actually worked out or not. In that respect, it reminds me of the ongoing FS round-the-world boat loan - again, not saying that that won't be ultimately successful, but it is very poor value IMV for the same reasons. On a separate note, whatever happened to the proposed planning permission for the "additional floors of residential apartments". I've just checked the NUL planning explorer and I don't see anything in the works. If achievable, that would be one way to rescue a bit of value - but, again, that'll probably need even more money to apply for!
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jlend
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Post by jlend on Jun 21, 2018 10:57:34 GMT
Hindsight is easy... having an MT appointed QS to oversee the development would have been good, especially for such a large loan and some early slippages. Agree in general, but I'm not sure a QS would have been much use here. They were due to be opening in less than one month from loan inception, suggesting just some polishing off to be doing. The issue with this loan from the outset is that it was an ambitious project (i.e. high risk of default) coupled with a valuation that is irrelevant in a default situation (i.e. probable low rate of recovery). Those factors combined always made it a poor value proposition, regardless of whether it actually worked out or not. In that respect, it reminds me of the ongoing FS round-the-world boat loan - again, not saying that that won't be ultimately successful, but it is very poor value IMV for the same reasons. On a separate note, whatever happened to the proposed planning permission for the "additional floors of residential apartments". I've just checked the NUL planning explorer and I don't see anything in the works. If achievable, that would be one way to rescue a bit of value - but, again, that'll probably need even more money to apply for! Agree, am also not sure a QS would have made a difference, but i do think it would have given a bit more visibility. Sorry i wasnt clear, i meant the slippages prior to the MT loan, which may have been for good reason but were a cause for concern for me at least. They had tenants actually move in during March last year looking at their facebook page "First tenants moved in"
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