registerme
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Post by registerme on Oct 17, 2017 22:03:08 GMT
Platforms don't seem to be held in very high esteem round here. One badly worded reply to one question, which was then clarified. NP and TW seem to have a good track record in Bradford. They've brought equity to the project. The comments on skyscrapercity are positive. This seems to be a genuine attempt to develop a grand old building. MoneyThing is in fact held in quite high esteem here. In the case of this loan (and in general) lenders want to make their own personal judgements about the viability of the project and the valuation of the security. Valuation reports are an art, not a science; even good valuation reports can be badly wrong when it comes to exercising the security. So, it's a natural step to look at the price history of the property; it gives you some idea of the wisdom of the market. We were told that the borrower paid £2m for the property, which gives us a comfortable 37.5% LTV. But someone checked (I'm guessing) the price paid data at the Land Registry, and found that the price paid was £1m, giving us a risky 75% LTV. Now, this was a distressed sale, and we're told that the borrower has spent an additional £1.2m on the property, so hopefully the first figure is a closer estimate to the real value. It is likely that the incorrect figure is just a mistake; somewhere along the chain of transmission someone misunderstood what the number represented. (If only because a deliberate misrepresentation would be found out.) As lenders what we expect is information that is accurate, and complete as far as is compatible with commercial confidentiality, borrower privacy, and reasonable efforts on the part of platforms (there's a tension with keeping costs down). P2P is a relatively new business, and platforms are learning on the job, and developing their processes in response to experience, customer feedback and FCA oversight. But checking the price paid data is a simple action which should already be part of the introducer's due diligence process, and the platform's due diligence process. (The check could have been omitted due to an oversight, or maybe performed early on and the discrepancy with the report provided later not noticed.) Great post.
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ben
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Post by ben on Oct 17, 2017 22:18:49 GMT
Yes, WE will find out, but The Lemmings and The Lazy won't, so most Platforms don't give a toss, because funds are are still satisfactorily filling their loans without us Old Guard contributing. Very aware Regular Readers know all this, my posting is for the benefit of Newbies who hopefully are wising up. Fast. The number of readers here is 90% of the number of registered lenders on MT, so likely all or nearly all active MT users are here. AIUI MT relied largely on this forum to recruit new lenders. If MT are ignoring us and relying on others they are making a big mistake. (I don't actually think they are, I believe that they are just out of their depth.) I do not think MT are actually out of there depth at least not yet, they got a bit surprised with the amount of negativity around a few loans that did not go 100% as planned and maybe have taken it a bit personally. They have also been surprised over how a few rumours can get people selling out of loans and running for the hills, when previously activity on the secondary has mainly been due to new loans being launched. MT are one of the few sites that appear to know there limits. Yes they are not perfect but when information has been shown to them they have acted on it. I have much more faith in MT then I do in a lot of the other sites.
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seeingred
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Post by seeingred on Oct 17, 2017 22:39:22 GMT
I feel confident that MT SophieThing will be astute enough to take on board much of what has been written in this thread. My post giving “seven pillars of wisdom “ for future P2P building loans might act as some sort of template for the future. It is unfortunate but perhaps inevitable that we have reached this stage. I would not have predicted that I would have had occasion to become so incisive on an MT thread. What happens to this one loan is largely immaterial, but platforms need to raise their game when dealing with investors on whom they ultimately rely. The lessons here need to be taken on board by all platforms who offer building loans. Amongst these is that this forum is not the only vehicle that may be utilised for information transfer.
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GeorgeT
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Post by GeorgeT on Oct 17, 2017 22:43:44 GMT
Yes, MT deserve some credit for listening and acting. Obviously quite a lot of negative stuff was posted in this thread and obviously MT have acted on it and got straight back to the borrower to seek some further assurances and clarifications and they delayed the loan launch date, resulting in the personal statement from the borrower today and the correction of the purchase price - all before the loan was launched. Clearly there's been a good effort here to ensure investors were able to act based on as much information as possible. At the end of the day every investor will make a decision on each loan based on the facts and the biggest requirement of a platform is to ensure that the full and accurate facts are made available in advance of a loan launch.
I do think MT care about their reputation and do listen and remain of the best platforms in that respect. That's not to say I'm a big fan of this particular loan - but I'm sure MT wouldn't proceed with it if they thought it was bad bit of business.
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Post by peerlessperil on Oct 17, 2017 23:13:38 GMT
I feel confident that MT SophieThing will be astute enough to take on board much of what has been written in this thread. My post giving “seven pillars of wisdom “ for future P2P building loans might act as some sort of template for the future. It is unfortunate but perhaps inevitable that we have reached this stage. I would not have predicted that I would have had occasion to become so incisive on an MT thread. What happens to this one loan is largely immaterial, but platforms need to raise their game when dealing with investors on whom they ultimately rely. The lessons here need to be taken on board by all platforms who offer building loans. Amongst these is that this forum is not the only vehicle that may be utilised for information transfer. I think we all need to understand that the platforms are businesses, and they need origination to survive. Platforms that proactively shed too much light on their borrowers' chequered pasts probably discover that the introducers of 12% loans will try a different platform next time.... I think the fishy loan over at ablrate was embarrassing, but if we look at the credit report for the related fishy loan on AC they didn't disclose everything lenders would liked to have known either, and nor did Lendy for the property loan to the same fishy crowd? Given the platforms do have to vet the borrowers for money laundering purposes I'd be surprised if they weren't fully aware. Given the money-laundering angle in this instance I'd be utterly astounded I'm afraid.
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jj
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Jolly Jammy
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Post by jj on Oct 18, 2017 6:21:16 GMT
And that's exactly why I pulled my money out of AC & Ablrate. The problem is there is not any Legal obligation to disclose this kind of information. Moral obligation, yes. Legal no.
However I am optimistic for the future because as a community we have uncovered very important information here and have used it for our own advantage. This makes investing here ironically a safer place.
Now what I propose will probably not be possible but why can there not be a sub-board here, like AC's. Here we could do our DD before MT takes on the loan. This would make MT a more pure P2P platform and increase confidence in the platform. I noticed that MT lately have been a bit off the mark in the loans they take on lately. MT could do with a bit of help.
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archie
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Post by archie on Oct 18, 2017 6:50:36 GMT
And that's exactly why I pulled my money out of AC & Ablrate. The problem is there is not any Legal obligation to disclose this kind of information. Moral obligation, yes. Legal no. However I am optimistic for the future because as a community we have uncovered very important information here and have used it for our own advantage. This makes investing here ironically a safer place. Now what I propose will probably not be possible but why can there not be a sub-board here, like AC's. Here we could do our DD before MT takes on the loan. This would make MT a more pure P2P platform and increase confidence in the platform. I noticed that MT lately have been a bit off the mark in the loans they take on lately. MT could do with a bit of help. Loans are in the pipeline a long time before they launch. Several don't make it, sometimes for dd reasons. There aren't a huge amount of loans for platforms to be able to cherry pick the better ones. There are too many platforms chasing the business. We often see a loan jump from one platform to another (a warning sign for me). If a loan was perfect it's unlikely it would be on any P2P platform, speed of completion being one exception. The only real issue for me on this loan is the difference between the purchase and valuation price. I can't really see where the £1m might have been spent. Projected costs to complete might be a bit optimistic. P2P is risky. I trust this platform far more than most of the others. Lenders should make up their own minds based on their risk tolerance.
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jj
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Jolly Jammy
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Post by jj on Oct 18, 2017 6:58:25 GMT
Perhaps its to repay a debt from the past!
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littleoldlady
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Running down all platforms due to age
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Post by littleoldlady on Oct 18, 2017 7:09:43 GMT
Perhaps its to repay a debt from the past! Hmm. The one thing missing from NP's mea culpa was any reason why the criminals who were robbed did not retaliate, not even later when he became very wealthy. Perhaps they were banged up at the time and have recently been released.
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on Oct 18, 2017 7:12:36 GMT
Perhaps its to repay a debt from the past! Hmm. The one thing missing from NP's mea culpa was any reason why the criminals who were robbed did not retaliate, not even later when he became very wealthy. Could be a gangster movie about that one day
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m2btj
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Post by m2btj on Oct 18, 2017 7:37:45 GMT
Hmm. The one thing missing from NP's mea culpa was any reason why the criminals who were robbed did not retaliate, not even later when he became very wealthy. Could be a gangster movie about that one day I loved the bit where NP states that his father's actions stopped £1m of drugs hitting the streets. This was indeed a selfless, altruistic act, worthy of commendation ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) I really think I have a career in writing VR's!
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sirius
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Post by sirius on Oct 18, 2017 8:19:20 GMT
I have stayed out of this loan and the thread up 'til now, I will not invest. I agree that p2p providers need to significantly up their underwriting game and only present loans to investors once and only once they have taken the essential steps in verifying the information provided by prospective borrowers is factually correct prior to preview then launch. By heck isn't the p2p sector as a whole stoking up one massive hillock of trouble for itself if it continues down the road it appears hell bent to travel with so many inexperienced retail investors and their funds entering the marketplace it is perhaps a short sighted view on the part of some who operate these platforms to derelict prudence and in so doing ensure the downfall of the many including their own inflated sense of ambition. No MoneyThing I will not commit my families limited resources to this loan, if you don't have the wherewithal to present things correctly from the outset then you do not deserve my cash, I ducked the Newcastle loan offering for similar reason, Paisley and B*******h too.Is it not indicative of a wider under performance as witnessed and attested to on other sites also, to my mind it is the purest folly to believe that anyone can hope to build anything worthy of a Nations praise if the foundations of this edifying performance comprise nowt but rotten concrete laid atop sand? Can do better, must do better. I am out for exactly the same reasons as in bold above.
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peteuk
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Post by peteuk on Oct 18, 2017 8:43:53 GMT
Me too newcastle was smelly enough , this ones not so bad ,allbe it the VR . How can you add a million in value in such a short time given that the photo shows a semi derilictt building so50% LTV is really 100% I AM OUT
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Post by marcusponds on Oct 18, 2017 9:17:56 GMT
I have stayed out of this loan and the thread up 'til now, I will not invest. I agree that p2p providers need to significantly up their underwriting game and only present loans to investors once and only once they have taken the essential steps in verifying the information provided by prospective borrowers is factually correct prior to preview then launch. By heck isn't the p2p sector as a whole stoking up one massive hillock of trouble for itself if it continues down the road it appears hell bent to travel with so many inexperienced retail investors and their funds entering the marketplace it is perhaps a short sighted view on the part of some who operate these platforms to derelict prudence and in so doing ensure the downfall of the many including their own inflated sense of ambition. No MoneyThing I will not commit my families limited resources to this loan, if you don't have the wherewithal to present things correctly from the outset then you do not deserve my cash, I ducked the Newcastle loan offering for similar reason, Paisley and B*******h too. Is it not indicative of a wider under performance as witnessed and attested to on other sites also, to my mind it is the purest folly to believe that anyone can hope to build anything worthy of a Nations praise if the foundations of this edifying performance comprise nowt but rotten concrete laid atop sand? Can do better, must do better. Sorry, what point are you making? You don't like MT? Up to you. No need for the insults. I'm 3 P2P platforms and this is by far the best. On all 3 I've made a far better return (over 7 years) than I would be investing cash elsewhere - and that assumes I get nothing back from the currently defaulted MT loans - which is pessimistic.
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shimself
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Post by shimself on Oct 18, 2017 10:33:57 GMT
I have stayed out of this loan and the thread up 'til now, I will not invest. I agree that p2p providers need to significantly up their underwriting game and only present loans to investors once and only once they have taken the essential steps in verifying the information provided by prospective borrowers is factually correct prior to preview then launch. By heck isn't the p2p sector as a whole stoking up one massive hillock of trouble for itself if it continues down the road it appears hell bent to travel with so many inexperienced retail investors and their funds entering the marketplace it is perhaps a short sighted view on the part of some who operate these platforms to derelict prudence and in so doing ensure the downfall of the many including their own inflated sense of ambition. No MoneyThing I will not commit my families limited resources to this loan, if you don't have the wherewithal to present things correctly from the outset then you do not deserve my cash, I ducked the Newcastle loan offering for similar reason, Paisley and B*******h too. Is it not indicative of a wider under performance as witnessed and attested to on other sites also, to my mind it is the purest folly to believe that anyone can hope to build anything worthy of a Nations praise if the foundations of this edifying performance comprise nowt but rotten concrete laid atop sand? Can do better, must do better. Sorry, what point are you making? You don't like MT? Up to you. No need for the insults. I'm 3 P2P platforms and this is by far the best. On all 3 I've made a far better return (over 7 years) than I would be investing cash elsewhere - and that assumes I get nothing back from the currently defaulted MT loans - which is pessimistic. If MT had brought some evidence of the £1.2M spent then I'd be ok with this (not very ok, but ok enough). Seeing as there very little to show for it I fear that they may have just accepted an empty assurance.
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