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Post by chrisb on Oct 31, 2017 11:06:19 GMT
Hi all, first post on here, just joined after finding the forum while searching for Funding Circle reviews.
I've been a member of Funding Circle for about 18 months, and don't have a lot of money invested (only about £700 at the moment), rather than using it as a proper investment/money making tool, I was more interested in playing with it to see how it went.
In the 18 months, I've had one A or A+ rated (24242) loan default after about four or five months, giving me a £55 exposure. When I questioned Funding Circle, they recommended not putting more than 2% in any one loan, which I guess makes sense, and I'll put down to a learning experience.
Now, in the last four months, I have had three interest only loans for £20 each where the capital is due to be re-paid but no payment has been forthcoming. These loans are 30173 (130 days late), 35161 (28 days late) and 27458 (about 14 days late).
Is this sort of delay in repaying interest only loans normal?
I kind of feel that I'm currently out of pocket by around £105 and while one goes in to these things with one's eyes open, I'm sure that if this was normal, Funding Circle would be out of business.
FWIW, I have always gone for the cautious approach, lending to A rated borrowers.
Given this bad experience, I am somewhat reluctant to now hand over all authority for which loans I take out to Funding Circle with the new arrangement in place since mid-September.
Is this type of repayment delay normal, or have I just been unlucky/badly investing?
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Post by many38 on Oct 31, 2017 11:51:23 GMT
I was in FC from the very beginning and was a cautious investor and only ever put money into A + B loans. Losses started after the first couple of years, when I quickly realised that Directors' PGs weren't worth the paper they were written on (if they ever were written?). When FC launched loans secured on property I thought that would be more secure and started diverting funds from businesses to property loans and added substantially more funds. I am now sitting on huge losses due to the London property fiasco where FC have shown a level of unbelievable incompetence. So I am now out, except for the trickle of repayments in pence coming back every month from business defaults 6 or 7 years old and I am losing hope of ever seeing any of my money back from the "secured" London loans where not even one repayment was made.
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happy
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Post by happy on Oct 31, 2017 12:31:23 GMT
A fairly normal FC experience i feel, unfortunately. I stopped investing in new business loans when fixed rates came along as unsecured lending at those rates was IMHO lunacy and after a number of very early A ranked loan defaults making one or a few payments before defaulting I sold out most of my hand picked SME loans and I moved to property loans, taking cashback when it was there but always selling on 2-3 months from expiry and have had no defaults since. Now I have held on to a reducing portfolio of property loans, highly diversified and lower LTV which I am letting run down to (hopefully) full repayment. Recovery on my defaults has been very minimal and overall I expect less than 10% to come back and it will take years. I have made a decent profit out of FC but it was a huge amount of work and my saviour on the losses front was diversification and selecting loans carefully. Had I not done this I am sure I could well have made a loss. Would not trust autobid, even in its new "fairer" form, due to poor quality of loans coming through even as A+ and As so unlikely to ever invest further in FC. It was fun though
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Post by jackpease on Oct 31, 2017 12:41:15 GMT
I think you have been unlucky - the problem is that there's a huge lag between what you invest in and when the losses start to hit home so it can often be too late before a chosen strategy (or indeed platform!) can be assessed. I lost out in early years but had time to cover those losses in latter years.
The recent changes I believe will stop the double 'luck' problem. You may still be unlucky with your randomly selected loans (zopa!) - but at least the pool of loans available to you will be random and not over-populated with dross that others have decided will soon default. The new system imho is fairer to newbies or those not willing/able to do due diligence - but obviously now useless for those who have a successful (at your expense) strategy!
Jack P
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markr
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Post by markr on Oct 31, 2017 13:29:03 GMT
Property development loans, which most of FC's interest only loans are, routinely run late because of over optimistic estimates or unforeseen delays. Often, defaulting the loan and calling in security is counterproductive, since the part-developed site is worth less than the completed development, so usually FC (and other platforms) will allow the developer to continue, and the loan continues to accrue interest, often at a higher rate. The trouble is, these development loans need a lot of monitoring, site visits, progress reports, etc, especially if the borrower is not cooperating or spinning a line, which I think is why FC is pulling out of them; there isn't enough margin to cover the costs of monitoring. This is something other platforms are also going to learn the hard way too (Funding Secure are going through the pain at the moment with a loan where they believed the borrower's tales rather than trogging up to Cumbria to have a look, which has turned out to be a costly mistake).
FC's recovery rates on unsecured loans is actually pretty good, given enough time the average recovery rate is better than 40%, although individual loans range from nothing to full recovery so the average doesn't mean much for your £55. However, there is a reasonable chance that you will recover at least some of it, although it may take several years. £55 is 7.8% of £700, so, while you have been unlucky, FC do, in many places, warn about the dangers of not diversifying.
That said, of course, with a £20 minimum bid you can't diversify your £700 over more than around 35 loans, at least at the outset, which highlights that FC is also not really a platform for smaller investments; to meet FC's Autobid target of no more than 0.5% per loan, you need to invest £4000. Smaller investments, IMHO, are better suited to fixed rate or provision fund protected products like Ratesetter or AC's automatic accounts because early losses hit a smaller account hard.
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dorset
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Post by dorset on Oct 31, 2017 17:12:45 GMT
As already said the key is diversification. I have been with FC since 2011 with never less than 1000 loans spread across A+ to E. Returns have been remarkably consistent at about 8%pa. Don't do property with FC. I've had 160 defaults over the period with a recovery to date of 38.8% and which I expect to reach 50% (but recovery is a very slow process).
Currently running out my FC investment and not participating in the new system. IMO about 30% of the loans offered are very shaky and I am not happy about now being unable to avoid them.
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c88dnf
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Post by c88dnf on Oct 31, 2017 17:40:10 GMT
The short answer is that your experience is - unfortunately - entirely to be expected. Every platform's assessment of loan "class" (A+-E or whatever) is based only on the sophistication of their risk analysis and whatever assessment they have made of any security's worth. Those have proven to be variable - to put it mildly - over recent years as the biggest platforms have grown beyond the point at which every borrower can be analysed in any depth. Hence many platforms, including FC, have moved to a completely "black box" approach which has little to do with the original precepts of peer-to-peer lending. Basically, you put a lump sum in, diversify as much as your capital and the platform's metrics allow and hope that the platform's estimates of returns prove accurate.
The risk of default is theoretically covered by platforms with a provision fund (though see debate ad nauseam on this forum on how much you are really protected). So yes to Assetz Capital and Ratesetter, but no to Zopa and FC. Alternatively, you select investments yourself (e.g. Assetz Capital or Funding Secure) and accept the higher risk for higher return OR use those same platforms to "black box" invest at comparable returns to FC (possibly better) with lower risk than FC's products.
If you really want to persevere with FC, the "least worst" option is to invest an absolute minimum of £4,000 via the new automated process, specifiying a maximum of 0.5% investment in any single loan. The £4k figure comes from FC's minimum cash sum per loan of £20, factored by the maximum diversification of 0.5%. Be aware that FC's total expected portfolio return to investors is 6.7%, though you will see the target for maximum diversification across all asset classes as 7.2%. That can only be achieved by a sufficient number of investors going for the cautious A+/A portfolio option and effectively foregoing their true profits. In short, FC are betting that in what is targetted as a mass-market product, there will be enough "mugs" to provide the returns for more sophisticated investors such as the people who read this forum. FC are probably correct....
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rogerthat
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Post by rogerthat on Oct 31, 2017 18:58:13 GMT
Mainly to echo in general all the honest comments above..I stopped investing in FC long ago and saw the red flag waving almost too late..I wont go through my whole experience as in part, all posts above have addressed a certain element of that. I too started in the financial year 2011 -2012 (my doesn't time fly) and yes..ive made more than ive lost but as previously remarked upon, its taken an awful amount of DD and close monitoring but it would be unfair (to FC) not to say that on the whole its been worth the effort and learning experience. Most certainly I wouldn't have got the same return from a bank, society or premium bonds. As it stands currently ive left with approximately 148 loans in various stages of decomposition..of those 101 are paying something back (Risk Band Removed), though only HIM upstairs knows how long that will take. Of the 47 left...1... A certain London Hotel (1K exposure) is out of everyones hands until the receivers finish their task but such will be the expense ive mentally written that off and.. 2...A Liverpool (You'll never walk alone ) 39 pre-sold flats (1Kexposure) looks like procured funds might yet get the job finished Xmas/New Year. Ive got 2 or 3 small ones up for sale so the rest must be RIP.
The 3 smalls have gone apparently.. so headline figure reduces to 145...onwards..upwards
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Oct 31, 2017 20:50:39 GMT
Alternatively, for a quiet life, albeit with some exposure to USA loans, look at the FC investment trust (fcit), which will solve the diversification issue, and offers a clean exit (at a price). Once you could even buy it at a decent discount, but not at the moment iirc.
Otherwise expect defaults and a V E R Y long drawn out recovery process.
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on Nov 1, 2017 15:08:45 GMT
I'd wager that in the next recession, you'll be able to buy shares in the Funding Circle Investment Trust at quite a substantial discount to NAV. I'd be a buyer at a hefty discount, once some indication of default rates started to emerge.
Personally, I wouldn't touch it right now. Doing so is reaching for yield that may well become evaporative in due course.
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