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Post by cassiopeia on Dec 12, 2017 21:54:06 GMT
I'm attempting to understand this ruleWhat does cannot be used mean here? Does this mean, if the loss has been declared irrecoverable by the platform on my income statement for last tax year 16/17 it must be used against personal income in 16/17 tax year? Problem is my income isn't enough to pay tax, so ideally I would wish to declare it for one of the following four years when my income would rise above the threshold to pay tax. Can I do that, or is it specifically saying I can't? Also is 'Principal write off' the same as irrecoverable for tax purposes?
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Dec 12, 2017 22:30:12 GMT
What does cannot be used mean here? Does this mean, if the loss has been declared irrecoverable by the platform on my income statement for last tax year 16/17 it must be used against personal income in 16/17 tax year? Problem is my income isn't enough to pay tax, so ideally I would wish to declare it for one of the following four years when my income would rise above the threshold to pay tax. Can I do that, or is it specifically saying I can't? Also is 'Principal write off' the same as irrecoverable for tax purposes? I think you have some leeway as to when you deem it irrecoverable - as of course do platforms with a PF...
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james100
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Post by james100 on Dec 13, 2017 9:42:26 GMT
I'm attempting to understand this ruleWhat does cannot be used mean here? Does this mean, if the loss has been declared irrecoverable by the platform on my income statement for last tax year 16/17 it must be used against personal income in 16/17 tax year? Problem is my income isn't enough to pay tax, so ideally I would wish to declare it for one of the following four years when my income would rise above the threshold to pay tax. Can I do that, or is it specifically saying I can't? Also is 'Principal write off' the same as irrecoverable for tax purposes? AIUI, your p2p losses & interest (outside ISA-wrappings) are treated as a black box relative to other income sources. You can only offset non-ISA p2p loss against non-ISA p2p interest, not against any other forms of interest or income whatsoever. You must do this to the maximum extent of non-ISA p2p interest earned in the earliest year possible, and can carry that loss offset to subsequent years if (and only if) your non-ISA p2p interest earned does not exceed your non-ISA p2p loss as yet not offset. Example: A) Tax Y1: p2p loss = 10K GBP; p2p interest earned = 10K GBP --> all loss must be declared in Y1 B) Tax Y1: p2p loss = 10K GBP; p2p interest earned = 6K --> 6K GBP loss must be declared in Y1; 4K loss to be carried over to Y2 and must be declared fully in Y2 unless p2p interest earned < 4K in which loss must be claimed equal to interest earned then excess may be carried to Y3 etc. Whether you can do what you want is somewhat incidental....depends purely whether the above rule is met or not. Of course, the definition of an "irrecoverable" p2p loan is not an exact science, and if you are happy to chat with HMRC regarding any discrepancies you might file regarding the tax year when a loan becomes "irrevocable" versus a platform's interpretation (which is filed automatically with HMRC) then you may have some flexibility in when you file your loss versus p2p income earned, so long as the above rule is complied with. That's my understanding of what you've posted in the context of p2p tax treatment in the UK. Any corrections very welcome!
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on Dec 13, 2017 9:59:08 GMT
I'm attempting to understand this ruleWhat does cannot be used mean here? Does this mean, if the loss has been declared irrecoverable by the platform on my income statement for last tax year 16/17 it must be used against personal income in 16/17 tax year? Problem is my income isn't enough to pay tax, so ideally I would wish to declare it for one of the following four years when my income would rise above the threshold to pay tax. Can I do that, or is it specifically saying I can't? Also is 'Principal write off' the same as irrecoverable for tax purposes? AIUI, your p2p losses & interest (outside ISA-wrappings) are treated as a black box relative to other income sources. You can only offset non-ISA p2p loss against non-ISA p2p interest, not against any other forms of interest or income whatsoever. You must do this to the maximum extent of non-ISA p2p interest earned in the earliest year possible, and can carry that loss offset to subsequent years if (and only if) your non-ISA p2p interest earned does not exceed your non-ISA p2p loss as yet not offset. Example: A) Tax Y1: p2p loss = 10K GBP; p2p interest earned = 10K GBP --> all loss must be declared in Y1 B) Tax Y1: p2p loss = 10K GBP; p2p interest earned = 6K --> 6K GBP loss must be declared in Y2; 4K loss to be carried over to Y2 and must be declared fully in Y2 unless p2p interest earned < 4K in which loss must be claimed equal to interest earned then excess may be carried to Y3 etc. Whether you can do what you want is somewhat incidental....depends purely whether the above rule is met or not. Of course, the definition of an "irrecoverable" p2p loan is not an exact science, and if you are happy to chat with HMRC regarding any discrepancies you might file regarding the tax year when a loan becomes "irrevocable" versus a platform's interpretation (which is filed automatically with HMRC) then you may have some flexibility in when you file your loss versus p2p income earned, so long as the above rule is complied with. That's my understanding of what you've posted in the context of p2p tax treatment in the UK. Any corrections very welcome! That was my thinking as well. Obviously doesn't mean we are right and people need to speak to their accountants.
The tax reliefs on P2P are quite generous, particularly if you can use the starting rate for savings
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rogerbu
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Post by rogerbu on Dec 13, 2017 11:57:31 GMT
For some loans that a platform has decided are 'irrecoverable' (following HMRC's effective guidance that as soon as a loan is in default then it CAN be declared 'irrecoverable'). I have decided that it was not yet 'irrecoverable' and therefore delayed using that loan that tax year. Some of these loans have paid up in subsequent tax years, so my decision (in hindsight) was right.
AIUI a loan you hold must be treated as one unit, so you can't split your 'irrecoverable' decision within a loan, but you can of course make a different decision about another loan.
I keep careful records of when a platform declares 'irrecoverable' and when and why I decide it is 'irrecoverable' along with records of when losses and recoveries are used in a tax return.
I can't think of a circumstance where I can legitimately claim a loan as 'irrecoverable' earlier than a platform might make the same decision.
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Post by cassiopeia on Dec 13, 2017 14:07:56 GMT
hazellend
It's more the other way round. I don't have a P2P net loss at all for 16/17. (Forget about ISAs nothing to do with them)
eg. Consider all Income from all sources during year 16/17 is purely from P2P =£10k so no income tax to pay.
However losses during same year =£4k
'Next' year 17/18 say I'm likely to have 20k purely from P2P alone, so I would be liable for income tax without offsetting losses. Could I then use the 4k loss from year 16/17 so my gain in 17/18 is only 20-4=£16k so income tax is reduced for that year?
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on Dec 13, 2017 16:24:35 GMT
hazellend It's more the other way round. I don't have a P2P net loss at all for 16/17. (Forget about ISAs nothing to do with them) eg. Consider all Income from all sources during year 16/17 is purely from P2P =£10k so no income tax to pay. However losses during same year =£4k 'Next' year 17/18 say I'm likely to have 20k purely from P2P alone, so I would be liable for income tax without offsetting losses. Could I then use the 4k loss from year 16/17 so my gain in 17/18 is only 20-4=£16k so income tax is reduced for that year? Good question! I don’t know
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jonah
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Post by jonah on Feb 27, 2018 21:48:56 GMT
A semi related and totally hypothetical question... if a p2x platform died for whatever reason, can you claim tax relief on the loans you had (used to have?) on that platform or do you have to wait until any winding down process is followed for the platform? What I guess I’m saying is what happens if a platform defaults instead of a loan? tagging folk who seem to comment on tax... SteveT ilmoro pikestaff james
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Feb 27, 2018 23:08:00 GMT
A semi related and totally hypothetical question... if a p2x platform died for whatever reason, can you claim tax relief on the loans you had (used to have?) on that platform or do you have to wait until any winding down process is followed for the platform? What I guess I’m saying is what happens if a platform defaults instead of a loan? tagging folk who seem to comment on tax... SteveT ilmoro pikestaff james If a platform dies the administration of loans made through the platform will be taken over by a third party (as required by the FCA). There will be no immediate tax consequences. However, the third party administrator may deduct charges, which may not be tax deductible (see past discussions of platform charges). In principle, relief for any losses on the loans should be given on the same basis as for any other p2p loans. However, there's no guarantee that the administrator's interpretation of the loss relief rules will be the same as the platform's.
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Feb 27, 2018 23:33:04 GMT
hazellend It's more the other way round. I don't have a P2P net loss at all for 16/17. (Forget about ISAs nothing to do with them) eg. Consider all Income from all sources during year 16/17 is purely from P2P =£10k so no income tax to pay. However losses during same year =£4k 'Next' year 17/18 say I'm likely to have 20k purely from P2P alone, so I would be liable for income tax without offsetting losses. Could I then use the 4k loss from year 16/17 so my gain in 17/18 is only 20-4=£16k so income tax is reduced for that year? As per james100's excellent reply, the £4k losses must be used in 16/17. You cannot carry them forward.
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