james21
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Post by james21 on Dec 16, 2017 18:04:28 GMT
I have been selling some of my loans in my main account and buying the same loans back in my ISA which moves the interest from the main account to the ISA account thus saving income tax. My question is; is there any financial benefit in setting either plus 1% or minus 1% when selling? Cant quite get my head around the logic, hopefully someone will know Thanks
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kermie
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Post by kermie on Dec 16, 2017 19:54:48 GMT
It's easier to understand if you think of the extreme case.
Let's say you buy your non-ISA loan into your ISA at 99% discount (not technically possible, but just for illustrative purposes).
You end up using little cash in the purchase within your ISA, so your ISA account receives only a little dent. Come end-of-loan, assuming it's repaid, you get the full 100% + 6% (say) back. That means you have *much* more cash squirrelled away within your ISA, with which you can go on to make more tax-free returns.
The 1% discount is just a much less extreme version of that - it means you have a small bump in the amount if cash within the tax-free wrapper.
The 1% above-par sale sucks money out of your ISA back into non-ISA.
Being only 1% at most it does not make that much difference. But you can see why FS had to introduce the +/-1% limit (it used to be much larger, IRRC).
So selling to yourself does not make-or-lose you money overall (fairly obviously) - it just adjusts the balance of what is in the ISA wrapper versus what is not - but in the long term could make a difference if you save some tax by virtue of growing the ISA more quickly.
TBH, I've always taken the view that it's not worth it and just to be able to keep myself on the straigh-and-narrow with HMRC if I do "sell to myself", I do so at 0%.
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stub8535
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Post by stub8535 on Dec 16, 2017 22:15:37 GMT
I have been selling some of my loans in my main account and buying the same loans back in my ISA which moves the interest from the main account to the ISA account thus saving income tax. My question is; is there any financial benefit in setting either plus 1% or minus 1% when selling? Cant quite get my head around the logic, hopefully someone will know Thanks James21 you have missed the boat on this little avoidance trick. Used to trade at plus or minus 5% saw people selling at -5% on main account and buying instantly in isa. Reverse and repeat to generate a tax loss on main account and inflate the £20k limit in the ifisa. Moved to 1% either way to try and prevent. Other platforms have not yet caught up with 1 allowing 20% plus either way per transaction. I hope these gamers and the platforms enjoy their interviews with HMRC next year.
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rambler
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Post by rambler on Dec 17, 2017 0:34:53 GMT
Surely if you want to sell loans from your non-ISA account and buy them with your ISA account you first have to put them on the SM. If you put them on the SM at -1% is there not a danger that someone else (maybe me ) will snap them up before your ISA can buy them?
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stub8535
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Post by stub8535 on Dec 17, 2017 5:49:43 GMT
Surely if you want to sell loans from your non-ISA account and buy them with your ISA account you first have to put them on the SM. If you put them on the SM at -1% is there not a danger that someone else (maybe me ) will snap them up before your ISA can buy them? True at standard times of day under normal conditions but you need to sleep sometime. You may have a well programmed bot running that snaps your sale up in microseconds in your isa. Well programmed as some loans sold at minus 1% are on sale for an informed reason. It's been a while since I sold my high 5 figure portfolio as I became dissatisfied with the operations of the platform wrt loan presentation and handling. Things may have changed at FS. From observations round recovery communications, I think not, as they still utilise head in the sand, butt in the air principles.
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duck
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Post by duck on Dec 17, 2017 9:06:38 GMT
I have been selling some of my loans in my main account and buying the same loans back in my ISA which moves the interest from the main account to the ISA account thus saving income tax. My question is; is there any financial benefit in setting either plus 1% or minus 1% when selling? Cant quite get my head around the logic, hopefully someone will know Thanks IMHO this is a Bird in hand / Bird in bush situation. When you sell on the secondary market what you receive from the sale is capital + accrued interest. The accrued interest is tax free. Sell at a premium and the return to you now is higher but when the loan repays in your ISA the return will be lower. Sell at a discount and the return to you now is lower but the return to your ISA will be higher. Obviously tax free. So the question you need to ask yourself is do you want the tax advantage now or do you want to build your ISA faster. The default position should be that you sell at market rate at the time of the transaction to avoid any embarrassing questions from HMRC about gaming the tax rules.
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aj
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Post by aj on Dec 19, 2017 8:27:29 GMT
I know very little about tax, but I'd always assumed that selling loan parts at a premium would fall under capital gains. (You get a yearly tax-free capital gains allowance separate to other allowances)
Would anyone like to assert otherwise?
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Dec 19, 2017 8:50:26 GMT
I know very little about tax, but I'd always assumed that selling loan parts at a premium would fall under capital gains. (You get a yearly tax-free capital gains allowance separate to other allowances) Would anyone like to assert otherwise? From FS's own Secondary Market Explained page: CAPITAL GAINS TAX
Secondary market transactions are considered to be purchases / sales of the original loan which is a “simple debt”. As such they are not usually liable for capital gains tax. In the event of a capital loss due to a default the loss is calculated against the original capital value, not including any premium / discount paid through the secondary market. The current capital gains annual exempt allowance for an individual is £11,100.
NOTE: If you buy and then resell the same loan part on the secondary market it may no longer be considered as a “simple debt” and any gains may be liable for capital gains tax.
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jo
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Post by jo on Jan 5, 2018 10:27:19 GMT
Tax implications aside, it's quite sobering when you've transferred every available penny from your Main Account to your ISA - and all you've got left is 'Not Available for Sale' - and you see how much you're potentially on the hook for!
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stub8535
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Post by stub8535 on Jan 5, 2018 12:11:32 GMT
Tax implications aside, it's quite sobering when you've transferred every available penny from your Main Account to your ISA - and all you've got left is 'Not Available for Sale' - and you see how much you're potentially on the hook for! No. Does that not raise a concern for you going forwards? Outside the usa you can claim a portion of bad debts against taxable income from p2p when working out your liability. You lose this inside the isa.
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jo
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Post by jo on Jan 5, 2018 15:22:19 GMT
Tax implications aside, it's quite sobering when you've transferred every available penny from your Main Account to your ISA - and all you've got left is 'Not Available for Sale' - and you see how much you're potentially on the hook for! No. Does that not raise a concern for you going forwards? Outside the usa you can claim a portion of bad debts against taxable income from p2p when working out your liability. You lose this inside the isa. I'll let the platforms offering ISAs know they're wasting their time Sorry, just being flippant. You're correct, of course. However, I reckon most of the outstandings will realise something - though it may take some years. Like everyone else on earth, I don't know the future but I reckon over the long run it's better to be in a tax free wrapper. That's the basis of my decision (punt).
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