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Post by d_saver on Jun 13, 2018 6:00:34 GMT
I've not been keeping up to date on this, but I find it next to impossible to believe that this data does not exist. If there is no physical record, then their would be some backups, somewhere. Presumably offsite. Even in the event the provider quickly killed off and wiped the client server, they'd not have cleared down any backups, if they existed. If collateral were maintaining their own backups, they would likely be off site. Having worked for well over a decade in data centres and providing servers/developing platforms in scenarios similar to this, I think it, unthinkable, that a recoverable backup is not somewhere... I'd be more than happy to volunteer my time to liaise with any providers and extract usable data from a database backup. fwiw - whilst in these situations in the past, I have been asked by clients to specifically delete and purge data held on servers. You can I expect draw conclusions from this. Either should be investigated imo, because either intent to commit fraud or yet more blatant incompetence and thus possible grounds for further legal action could be gained. A pessimistic non-lawyer writes. There may well be extant backups, in the shape of 1s and 0s residing on a system somewhere. I suppose the first question is where? - and of course it may not even be in UK. The next question that occurs to me is that of who now owns it? Presumably if the fees to the service provider have not been paid Col, RR or BDO don't own the data now residing with Servers'R'Us of High St, Lagos? Which leads onto the question of how does a non-owner access those 1s and 0s? Or maybe it's all much more straightforward - there's a first time for anything, even the law. As for any in-house backups that may or may not have existed - well, it's amazing what even a Guardian journalist can achieve with a few simple power tools - see here from 0:40 on I would start by asking the companies employees/directors. Probably start with the PC's and equipment that were in their offices, which are now all assets under the control of the liquidator (or should be). In these situations in the past, as a data centre, we never deleted client data when bills were unpaid. The reason for this is that removed our hold, our way to get our money. You want your data, pay your bill and we'll release it. It could be that their bills were all paid up and the service was requested shut down, in which case this may not apply, but it is, again, next to impossible to believe that no backups were taken, given their entire livelyhood depended on it. We had mention more than once that they were testing 'disaster recovery'. To where? A simple conversation with the directors should obtain this info?
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jun 13, 2018 7:03:32 GMT
"I wonder if any of the offers to purchase the loan book still stand (if they ever really existed)?"Well, I was told straight by the Director of one Platform that an offer to Purchase certainly does exist. And they are apparently still waiting for a reply. The FCA/BDO can't rush into anything you know, might cost them. I certainly hope that they do respond and consider such as a proposal as it seems it would likely generate the best overall return for creditors which is surely the goal of administration? How many pence in the £ are they offering?
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keystone
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Post by keystone on Jun 13, 2018 7:11:16 GMT
I find it inconceivable that any organisation would delete the database in a similar situation and not have backups unless it was for the purpose of destroying any incriminating evidence. There are also data protection issues, there is the fact that once RR was appointed they were supposed to be in control and data should have been secured and the directors should not have been making decisions without authorisation and supervision. Once the court order was obtained by FCA, no action of this kind should have been permitted and and the data should have been secured by court order. Once BDO were appointed the Data should have been handed over to them.
The directors were fully aware of the what was going on, did they not state that they had a living will? Were RR not mentioned in that living will? How did they expect the living will to be enacted without the data? The FCA allowed this situation to go on for over 2 years and their defence of ignorance doesn't wash. No doubt BDO will likely milk the situation for all its worth. I think a serious investigation should be conducted into the conduct of the directors, RR and the FCA.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 7:21:32 GMT
I find it inconceivable that any organisation would delete the database in a similar situation and not have backups unless it was for the purpose of destroying any incriminating evidence. There are also data protection issues, there is the fact that once RR was appointed they were supposed to be in control and data should have been secured and the directors should not have been making decisions without authorisation and supervision. Once the court order was obtained by FCA, no action of this kind should have been permitted and and the data should have been secured by court order. Once BDO were appointed the Data should have been handed over to them. The directors were fully aware of the what was going on, did they not state that they had a living will? Were RR not mentioned in that living will? How did they expect the living will to be enacted without the data? The FCA allowed this situation to go on for over 2 years and their defence of ignorance doesn't wash. No doubt BDO will likely milk the situation for all its worth. I think a serious investigation should be conducted into the conduct of the directors, RR and the FCA. The living will involved appointing RR - the FCA effectively tore up the living will when they booted RR off the case. According to FCA logic, Col were unregulated so the living will does not apply. The FCA legal process also hamstrung RRs ability to operate while things moved through the courts. 'Should have' and 'common sense' tend to go out the window when large bureaucracies and lawyers become involved.
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m2btj
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Post by m2btj on Jun 13, 2018 7:33:20 GMT
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Post by Butch Cassidy on Jun 13, 2018 7:58:09 GMT
Then compare & contrast to the last RR statement "These investments are entirely secured against the relevant individual properties (& chattel assets) and consequently it was the intention of the Administrator is to distribute the monies in accordance with the relevant loan agreements which each individual had signed up to. Therefore when a loan was concluded and the balance of funds would be received into the Group and payment to the relevant investors would be made accordingly, however, this action cannot be undertaken at present due to the restrictions imposed by the Court." & "Administrator has received over 15 expresses of interest in buying all or part of the Group."
Many were unhappy with RR & their reservations may well have had some validity but RR understood the business model, had the cooperation of the staff/mgmt., had already reconciled all the loans & assets confirming all were in place & were even ready to start returning lenders funds; so all those who supported the FCA court action & BDO appointment need to ask themselves - where are we now & is that a better position than we were in with RR?
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Post by precaution on Jun 13, 2018 7:58:16 GMT
Also, just wanted to let other lenders know that I kept my own records and have the basics details of the loans I invested in which I can easily pull it if this is required in pulling information together When BDO were appointed I went through all of my emails from Collateral and was able to recover all my loan investments and sales from the Collateral emails, and was able to do a 99% reconciliation for both accounts I'm responsible for, I was short on info on interest but that's it. Others should be able to do the same. I'm a large investor so its worth my while. The problem I see is it would require all investors to 1. Have access to all historical emails, 2. to go through them rigorously to be able to recreate their loan book. Given there are a lot of small investors I can't see that happening. Unless there was deliberate action, I find it very difficult to understand how it was possible to accurately determine each investor's aggregate position without having the Loan Book, it would be very odd to have two separate records? BDO could have gone through the bank payments, I suppose, but that doesn't capture interest, just the net payments into the system.
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11025
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Post by 11025 on Jun 13, 2018 8:08:57 GMT
Also, just wanted to let other lenders know that I kept my own records and have the basics details of the loans I invested in which I can easily pull it if this is required in pulling information together When BDO were appointed I went through all of my emails from Collateral and was able to recover all my loan investments and sales from the Collateral emails, and was able to do a 99% reconciliation for both accounts I'm responsible for, I was short on info on interest but that's it. Others should be able to do the same. I'm a large investor so its worth my while. The problem I see is it would require all investors to 1. Have access to all historical emails, 2. to go through them rigorously to be able to recreate their loan book. Given there are a lot of small investors I can't see that happening. Unless there was deliberate action, I find it very difficult to understand how it was possible to accurately determine each investor's aggregate position without having the Loan Book, it would be very odd to have two separate records? BDO could have gone through the bank payments, I suppose, but that doesn't capture interest, just the net payments into the system. I am in a similar postion The total concern to me is that the Lenders are the people with the most at stake and the whole reason the company was actually able to be in business , yet at this time we have the least input or thought given to us , this is ridiculous it can't be allowed to continue in the manner
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 8:26:54 GMT
Many were unhappy with RR & their reservations may well have had some validity but RR understood the business model, had the cooperation of the staff/mgmt., had already reconciled all the loans & assets confirming all were in place & were even ready to start returning lenders funds; so all those who supported the FCA court action & BDO appointment need to ask themselves - where are we now & is that a better position than we were in with RR?
The FCA may have done things 'by the book' to get BDO appointed, but their bludgeoning, ham-fisted bureaucratic approach has pretty much guaranteed zero co-operation from anyone who actually understands the business. BDO will learn what they need to, eventually, while charging by the hour of course. I'll reiterate my opinion of the financial regulators from personal experience of dealing with their staff. Box-tickers. This fiasco has just reinforced that opinion even further.
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sjg
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Post by sjg on Jun 13, 2018 8:40:33 GMT
As one of the small investors I know how much I had in Collateral but no other records apart from one lone email so I wouldn't be of much help reconciling the loan book and would expect a lot more like me.
One thing I thought of though is that I'm sure Collateral took the interest payments up front (might be getting mixed up with another P2P company) so unless an end of loan repayment was due there wouldn't have been any payments from borrowers. Saying that nearly 4 months down the line a lot should have been due to be paid!!
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Jun 13, 2018 8:44:30 GMT
We all know by now that the FCA were only interested in covering their rear ends and BDO will ‘milk’ the Collateral carcass for all it’s worth. It was certainly in their interests to turn investors into ordinary creditors otherwise their funding would dry up.
It was convenient for BDO that Collateral were not regulated so they were able to go down this route. They are certainly not interested in investors and/or creditors. If challenged BDO will be able to account for every penny of expenditure they have incurred - that’s the reality.
Now the practicalities are as I see it.
It’s important for investors to get organised, under one umbrella as a matter of urgency. We can discuss, debate, rant, etc on this forum until the end of days but it will have zero impact. Only once there is a solid representation made will there possibly be any progress. Until then BDO will continue to take their fees and any return to investors will be minimal at best.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jun 13, 2018 9:37:10 GMT
fwiw I only ever made two transfers in, and bought parts of two loans. I have email records for all transfers in and out, part purchases, and interest payments.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jun 13, 2018 10:15:00 GMT
Then compare & contrast to the last RR statement "These investments are entirely secured against the relevant individual properties (& chattel assets) and consequently it was the intention of the Administrator is to distribute the monies in accordance with the relevant loan agreements which each individual had signed up to. Therefore when a loan was concluded and the balance of funds would be received into the Group and payment to the relevant investors would be made accordingly, however, this action cannot be undertaken at present due to the restrictions imposed by the Court." & "Administrator has received over 15 expresses of interest in buying all or part of the Group."
Many were unhappy with RR & their reservations may well have had some validity but RR understood the business model, had the cooperation of the staff/mgmt., had already reconciled all the loans & assets confirming all were in place & were even ready to start returning lenders funds; so all those who supported the FCA court action & BDO appointment need to ask themselves - where are we now & is that a better position than we were in with RR?
If RR were so on top of the financials how come the figures were all wrong in their report? At that point it became apparent to many lenders that there seemed to be funds missing and/or wrongly allocated, and/or wrongly accounted for. I lost all faith in RR at that point. Subsequently these concerns about RR's understanding of the finances have been confirmed.
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snowmobile
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Post by snowmobile on Jun 13, 2018 10:25:52 GMT
Interesting especially as it is dated 31 May 2018, over three months after the company had ceased trading. True but not for the right reason! I wouldn't quite put it like that...  This is news to me. Is this another unsecured creditor for unpaid rent?
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james21
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Post by james21 on Jun 13, 2018 10:38:42 GMT
We all know by now that the FCA were only interested in covering their rear ends and BDO will ‘milk’ the Collateral carcass for all it’s worth. It was certainly in their interests to turn investors into ordinary creditors otherwise their funding would dry up. It was convenient for BDO that Collateral were not regulated so they were able to go down this route. They are certainly not interested in investors and/or creditors. If challenged BDO will be able to account for every penny of expenditure they have incurred - that’s the reality. Now the practicalities are as I see it. It’s important for investors to get organised, under one umbrella as a matter of urgency. We can discuss, debate, rant, etc on this forum until the end of days but it will have zero impact. Only once there is a solid representation made will there possibly be any progress. Until then BDO will continue to take their fees and any return to investors will be minimal at best. fully agree; but lets wait until they come back with the next communique. What I think would be helpful is a new "board" for investors only so BDO (or anyone else) cant monitor. Not sure how you prove you are an investor though
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