adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 10,022 
Likes: 5,148
Member is Online
|
Post by adrianc on Jun 16, 2018 15:20:56 GMT
... 9. Would people really prefer RR? They (a) seemed to "forget" about client account money in their report, (b) didn't reveal that the Col owners had withdrawn "profits" after the FCA intervened, (c) delayed the new administrators as long as they could and, when it came down to it, didn't even bother to turn up to court to defend their side, and (d) were chosen by Col and were paid an interestingly large sum upfront. I think you've missed the single biggest issue with RR's administration out, tbh - the lack of client holding records.
There's three possible scenarios I can see that explain RR not mentioning that once.
1 - RR knew they were AWOL, but chose to let us believe they were present and correct.
2 - RR hadn't noticed they were AWOL.
3 - RR had them, and have not passed them to BDO.
Now, which of those three does anything but paint RR into a very bad light? Some are clearly worse than others - I find the active complicity of 3 the most worrying, followed by the deliberate mendacity of 1, with the mere indolence of 2 being the mildest.
I am open to alternative scenarios if any of the RR supporters would wish to put one forward? rxdav?
|
|
rxdav
Member of DD Central
Posts: 354 
Likes: 349
|
Post by rxdav on Jun 16, 2018 15:28:22 GMT
We are not far apart here rxdav. Of course the FCA would like to leave it all to BDO and to have no further involvement. But FCA fumbled the registration, they eventually caused Coll to go into administration, they forced the court to replace RR with BDO, specifically to protect investor/lenders. They have called all the shots and are on the hook politically at least. If BDO's proposals are not liked, then the buck stops with FCA, and the court is monitoring, and presumably available to a creditors' committee. BDO may provide acceptable proposals on 22nd, but if not lenders have some clout. You make fair comment blender and I wouldn't take issue with your synopsis. From my perspective the FCA's crass intervention has turned what could have been a relatively minor injury free collision into a potentially fatal multiple pile up (to use an RTA analogy). The only people I currently see their ill-timed, poorly executed and unnecessarily heavy handed intervention/s trying to 'protect' is themselves - but their professional reputation was already toast (sadly, I now seem to be getting a personal (and painful) demonstration why)).
I'll now get back in my box until the report is issued - this is one occasion where I find myself genuinely hoping I am proved wrong!
|
|
rxdav
Member of DD Central
Posts: 354
Likes: 349
|
Post by rxdav on Jun 16, 2018 15:57:02 GMT
... 9. Would people really prefer RR? They (a) seemed to "forget" about client account money in their report, (b) didn't reveal that the Col owners had withdrawn "profits" after the FCA intervened, (c) delayed the new administrators as long as they could and, when it came down to it, didn't even bother to turn up to court to defend their side, and (d) were chosen by Col and were paid an interestingly large sum upfront. I think you've missed the single biggest issue with RR's administration out, tbh - the lack of client holding records.
There's three possible scenarios I can see that explain RR not mentioning that once.
1 - RR knew they were AWOL, but chose to let us believe they were present and correct.
2 - RR hadn't noticed they were AWOL.
3 - RR had them, and have not passed them to BDO.
Now, which of those three does anything but paint RR into a very bad light? Some are clearly worse than others - I find the active complicity of 3 the most worrying, followed by the deliberate mendacity of 1, with the mere indolence of 2 being the mildest.
I am open to alternative scenarios if any of the RR supporters would wish to put one forward? rxdav ? adrianc: I do not know the answer to your question - neither do you - nor, I suspect, will we ever know - this is already a secret squirrel's wet dream!
What I do know is that I talked personally and at length to Jessica from RR when they were still 'on the case' - and she impressed me with her knowledge, confidence and competence - that was an individual who knew what they were doing and how to do it. You can posit all the conspiracy theories you want - but they will be no more than that.
I will wait until we see what BDO put into the arena - and maybe it will be the most pristine example of an administration report ever seen by man - but at what cost? Call me old fashioned, but I for one have not lost sight of what I want from this sad debacle - namely, my money back - or as much of it as possible.
Finally, irrespective of the RR vs. BDO debate - which is fundamentally irreconcilable anyway, I reiterate that my contempt is primarily directed at the FCA. I don't see too many out there articulating what a cracking bunch of dedicated professionals they have proved to date - covering themselves in all this glory!?
|
|
adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 10,022
Likes: 5,148
Member is Online
|
Post by adrianc on Jun 16, 2018 16:16:42 GMT
You can posit all the conspiracy theories you want - but they will be no more than that. "Conspiracy theories"? No. I'm merely trying to figure out how we could possibly have got to a stage where, four months after the first administrators were sent in and the shutters went up, we suddenly find out that the most basic holding details are unavailable... You'd like to think that was something that would have been safely squared away on day one, wouldn't you? Like I said, they're the three basic scenarios I can see, but I'm open to others. There is a fourth - that RR passed the details over to BDO, who decided to lie and claim they hadn't got them, but that one fails the most basic sniff-of-reality test, since it would have been trivially easy for RR to say "Yes, we did - and there's another copy on the way to you now."
|
|
rxdav
Member of DD Central
Posts: 354
Likes: 349
|
Post by rxdav on Jun 16, 2018 18:10:06 GMT
You can posit all the conspiracy theories you want - but they will be no more than that. "Conspiracy theories"? No. I'm merely trying to figure out how we could possibly have got to a stage where, four months after the first administrators were sent in and the shutters went up, we suddenly find out that the most basic holding details are unavailable... You'd like to think that was something that would have been safely squared away on day one, wouldn't you? Like I said, they're the three basic scenarios I can see, but I'm open to others. There is a fourth - that RR passed the details over to BDO, who decided to lie and claim they hadn't got them, but that one fails the most basic sniff-of-reality test, since it would have been trivially easy for RR to say "Yes, we did - and there's another copy on the way to you now." I can only reiterate that I do not know - as you yourself are freely admitting you don't. Will we ever know - only time will tell - likely not methinks?
However, if those detailed holdings records cannot be ascertained via original data or reconstruction then this becomes a whole new nightmare (with the increased likelihood of civil and/or criminal proceedings I suggest). I know what I had in COL to within a few hundred - but not exactly how much in which loan - let alone any finer detail. This was an online platform - stating the obvious of course. If my online Bank goes belly-up can I tell you what transactions occurred on my account a week last Tuesday - no idea - like most I suggest. I have been encouraged to 'turn off' paper statements to help 'save the planet' (or the Bank money more likely) - and that's the way it is. I have some records - but proving exactly what I had where at the precise moment of the FCA mandated termination of COL is in the ether (or cloud - I hope)!!
Which is why my venom is directed at the FCA - likely some pompous half-wit called Rupert decided that the FCA had to be seen to 'show its mettle' - with clearly little thought or consideration of the potential ramifications (it's a 'theory').
I will be delighted to be proved wrong - but I am currently not getting a warm feeling about this at all.
Currently thinking of selling all my investments, buying gold bullion and burying it - just need a spade but I can get one off Amazon - bugger, the web-site is down!!
|
|
k6
Posts: 266
Likes: 161
|
Post by k6 on Jun 16, 2018 22:07:39 GMT
It would certainly be interesting to know what percentage of investors are aware/read this site and how we can get any non viewers to join in. curious if any of ex-employees of Col following ( if aware of it ) this forum. If they are , some hint would be appreciate ;-) With the caveat that things may change radically on the 22nd when more information is hopefully available. I would think there is a reasonable number of investors read the forum, many less inclined to post I suggest. Telepathy may be the only option to get those who don't read to be aware, I think the results would be disappointing though. Probably fairly irrelevant anyway. I am seeing no signs that there is a consensus of opinion to suggest 'coordinated response' from investors is going to happen. Regarding your second point, I would be amazed if people formerly connected to Collateral were not reading the forum, if only out of curiosity. None would comment though. U probably right about them not willing to comment in here, but as a human touch it would be nice if they hold some valuables information to perhaps share it with ... BDO or FCA, police ? . Send them a secret letter , a white pigeon ;~) They were there, behind a desk. Most likely know more than as , investors , do. Little help would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance !!
|
|
rxdav
Member of DD Central
Posts: 354
Likes: 349
|
Post by rxdav on Jun 17, 2018 9:18:45 GMT
With the caveat that things may change radically on the 22nd when more information is hopefully available. I would think there is a reasonable number of investors read the forum, many less inclined to post I suggest. Telepathy may be the only option to get those who don't read to be aware, I think the results would be disappointing though. Probably fairly irrelevant anyway. I am seeing no signs that there is a consensus of opinion to suggest 'coordinated response' from investors is going to happen. Regarding your second point, I would be amazed if people formerly connected to Collateral were not reading the forum, if only out of curiosity. None would comment though. U probably right about them not willing to comment in here, but as a human touch it would be nice if they hold some valuables information to perhaps share it with ... BDO or FCA, police ? . Send them a secret letter , a white pigeon ;~) They were there, behind a desk. Most likely know more than as , investors , do. Little help would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance !! If the FCA really did eventually opt to trigger the 'nuclear option' it is far from inconceivable that previous COL employees (not just directors) could be made an offer to comment they couldn't easily refuse - and find themselves in a police interview room being formally questioned under caution. Could conspiracy theories eventually metamorphose into conspiracy charges - who was it said 'never say never'? If I were an ex-employee of COL I would have detailed contemporaneous notes of my involvement and knowledge of events at COL - and I would feel no loyalty to my previous employer whatsoever. AIMHO of course!
|
|
blender
Member of DD Central
Posts: 5,719
Likes: 4,272
|
Post by blender on Jun 17, 2018 9:59:12 GMT
We are not far apart here rxdav. Of course the FCA would like to leave it all to BDO and to have no further involvement. But FCA fumbled the registration, they eventually caused Coll to go into administration, they forced the court to replace RR with BDO, specifically to protect investor/lenders. They have called all the shots and are on the hook politically at least. If BDO's proposals are not liked, then the buck stops with FCA, and the court is monitoring, and presumably available to a creditors' committee. BDO may provide acceptable proposals on 22nd, but if not lenders have some clout. You make fair comment blender and I wouldn't take issue with your synopsis. From my perspective the FCA's crass intervention has turned what could have been a relatively minor injury free collision into a potentially fatal multiple pile up (to use an RTA analogy). The only people I currently see their ill-timed, poorly executed and unnecessarily heavy handed intervention/s trying to 'protect' is themselves - but their professional reputation was already toast (sadly, I now seem to be getting a personal (and painful) demonstration why)).
I'll now get back in my box until the report is issued - this is one occasion where I find myself genuinely hoping I am proved wrong!
It seems that your box had a very loose lid, from latest post of speculation on stilts. I'm getting back in my box now. Please nail down the lid for me  .
|
|
sirius
Member of DD Central
Posts: 161
Likes: 141
|
Post by sirius on Jun 17, 2018 11:28:20 GMT
I have not commented on this thread for a while as I have been taking in all the comments from those with more knowledge and expertise in the issues concerned, to which I give a heartfelt thank you, as it has helped me to understand the complexities involved. I strongly agree with those who feel that we need to form a group to challenge the FCA/BDO cartel, or we will lose out through apathy and/or self-imposed 'divide and conquer'.
|
|
|
|
Post by tony1974 on Jun 17, 2018 12:57:29 GMT
I have not commented on this thread for a while as I have been taking in all the comments from those with more knowledge and expertise in the issues concerned, to which I give a heartfelt thank you, as it has helped me to understand the complexities involved. I strongly agree with those who feel that we need to form a group to challenge the FCA/BDO cartel, or we will lose out through apathy and/or self-imposed 'divide and conquer'. Well if things yet again dont go our way on the 22nd of this month , i will happily volunteer myself to join a group. I suspect there will be many many more of us. Fingers crossed to us all that the outcome from the 22nd update will be a lot more welcoming
|
|
hazellend
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,363
Likes: 2,180
|
Post by hazellend on Jun 17, 2018 14:01:55 GMT
Who would lead the group though?
Would need some investors who are calm and cool headed, which rules out about 90% of posters on this forum given some of the catastrophising witnessed above
|
|
hazellend
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,363
Likes: 2,180
|
Post by hazellend on Jun 17, 2018 14:08:17 GMT
Who would lead the group though? Would need some investors who are calm and cool headed, which rules out about 90% of posters on this forum given some of the catastrophising witnessed above Some other things that make col a very unique situation: - they didn’t go bust, which is the usual reason - the owners have gone rogue, trying to destroy the evidence, with obvious zero regard for their investors The first point is in our favour but the second point leads to a lot more uncertainty. I am mildly hopeful the FCA will want to see a satisfactory outcome, given that most of us would not have invested at all if FCA hadn’t initially agreed that there was interim permission. And the final uncertain thing, why didn’t FCA just issue limited permission so that an administrator could have wound down in an orderly fashion.
|
|
kaya
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,150
Likes: 718
|
Post by kaya on Jun 17, 2018 14:26:39 GMT
I think it is notable that the BDO have 'leaked' their intentions in the last notification, seemingly in order to gauge opinion/reaction before making the next update. We do indeed need a leading voice to represent us and show the BDO that we mean business and will not be trampled on.
Whilst I do not think I have a problem with a 'one pot shared amongst all' approach, I am totally against being treated as an unsecured creditor of Collateral. That would be completely against the whole spirit and meaning of what our intention was - and what the intention of the Collateral company was too.
At the very least we are secured ring-fenced investors, and neither BDO nor anyone else has any right to put their grubby paws on our cash.
|
|
agent69
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,049
Likes: 4,438
|
Post by agent69 on Jun 17, 2018 14:26:44 GMT
- the owners have gone rogue, trying to destroy the evidence, Is there any evidence that this is the case?
I think the only facts are that COL had investor records when they were running the platform, but BDO do not. I assume RR had them (as they were anticipating an orderly distribution of funds as loans repaid) and would have been responsible for safeguarding them though the administration process. The first court case didn't remove RR, but it severely limited what they could do (for example collect borrower payments, but not spend any of that money). So if RR had investor data when they took over were they responsible for its safe retention until BDO took over?
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,710
Likes: 2,985
|
Post by michaelc on Jun 17, 2018 14:51:10 GMT
One concern I have is that I hope investors don't become divided along the lines of "one pot is fine" and those who want the outcome to remain as originally promised (i.e. P2P). In both cases being merely a creditor is surely the worst? That would mean we'd rank behind BDO (as I understand it). If we were P2P consumer investors we would rank ahead and we would be classed as that if COL was FCA regulated/authorised which many people (myself included) were led to believe based on the FCA's own website!
|
|
.
