michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Mar 3, 2018 14:58:54 GMT
Something has been troubling me for a while. If I have money left in "cash" on a fully registered FCA p2p platform and the platform decides to commit fraud by running off with it never to be seen again, will I be compensated? Similarly, if I "invest" into loans that don't exist and that money is stolen by the directors/owners again would I be compensated?
I asked a similar question in another thread (a bit out of context hence this new thread) and got one answer which seemed to imply I would. I don't understand why though because even though FCA registered they'd be no recourse to the FSCS compensation scheme ? (Unless an underlying bank went bust but that's not the premise here). If I would be compensated, who would do the compensating?
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micky
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Post by micky on Mar 3, 2018 15:04:10 GMT
I have copied this Moneything's website-
'Just the thing for competitive P2P lending and borrowing
Put simply, we give borrowers access to capital and lenders a better return on their money. We’re committed to giving everyone a fair deal and speedy, personal service.
Your capital is at RISK and is not protected under the Financial Services Compensation Scheme.'
Lendy say this
'All loans made through Lendy's platform are secured on UK property; however, your capital is at risk should a borrower default. Funds lent through a peer-to-peer website are not covered by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme (FSCS). Remember, past performance is not a guarantee of future performance. With all investment, capital is at risk. Please obtain independent advice if you are in any doubt as to whether this platform is suitable for you or if you require tax advice. Please review our full risk assessment here...'
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Mar 3, 2018 15:16:33 GMT
I've read those but I'll explain why its still not clear to me at least.
Firstly, Lendy isn't fully registerd/authorised so discount them for a moment.
Then one condition of compliance is segregation of client account from other business accounts. What if the platform don't do that or don't do lots of other things they say they are doing to the FCA? Or the FCA don't check that thoroughly or freuquently?
I guess what I'm saying is if there is no compensation, what is the point of being FCA regulated? When a punter looks at one company that is regulated and one that isn't, why does the one that is regulated give him more confidence if either could run off with his money?
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Post by vaelin on Mar 3, 2018 18:19:33 GMT
I think the purpose of it being FCA regulated is that it ensures certain procedures and safeguards must be put in place to protect client money. However, it only really works if the company is honest. If they are dishonest then nothing is protecting you.
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mason
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Post by mason on Mar 3, 2018 20:13:48 GMT
I've read those but I'll explain why its still not clear to me at least. Firstly, Lendy isn't fully registerd/authorised so discount them for a moment. Then one condition of compliance is segregation of client account from other business accounts. What if the platform don't do that or don't do lots of other things they say they are doing to the FCA? Or the FCA don't check that thoroughly or freuquently? I guess what I'm saying is if there is no compensation, what is the point of being FCA regulated? When a punter looks at one company that is regulated and one that isn't, why does the one that is regulated give him more confidence if either could run off with his money? Unfortunately, P2P is a bit of an outlier in that claims to the FSCS must be in relation to a bank holding your uninvested funds that cannot meet its obligation to you, or an authorised financial adviser whose advice to invest your money in the P2P platform was unsuitable. Quite different than, for example, the DIY investing platform, where if somebody ran off with your money you could claim against the company itself and get a payout from the FSCS if the company could not repay you. I really don't think there should be fewer safeguards available to you when trading P2P loans than there are when trading AIM shares, but that seems to be the situation at present.
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elliotn
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Post by elliotn on Mar 4, 2018 4:24:47 GMT
Re FSCS, I believe masonic has the two major instances above.
Re client accounts - these must be audited as fca requirement (even if the p2p co itself does not require audit as a small company). On the way in, investors are checked for kyc/aml to make sure they're authentic and those monies can only be transferred out to a linked account. So the safeguards are that we pay direct to a segregated bank account for clients (ie it is not the p2p own co account) that could not be emptied out to the directors' or co account. This is a precondition of authorisation and is externally audited.
Re loans, I invest in asset backed loans, these can be verified to external sources such as CH and LR that they exist and legal charges are put in place. Existence checks and charges can also apply to business lending. Not sure how you could independently verify consumer lending to anonymous borrowers other than making sure the co has all relevant permissions in place.
So there are safeguards and there are external checks/evidence but if someone really wanted to commit fraud then possibly no regulator could stop that. We would still have legal charges on assets and they should not have emptied the remote client account (without insider bank fraud) so it would be unsecured creditors most at risk.
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Post by elephantrosie on Mar 4, 2018 9:27:59 GMT
i dont think anyone could give you a definite answer here.
even if legally you are protected, you may not get the money. this is such a grey area, especially when the business collapses due to fraud.
imho, the best thing is not to keep cash in any platforms. why would you want to risk it?
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stub8535
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Post by stub8535 on Mar 4, 2018 9:48:18 GMT
i dont think anyone could give you a definite answer here. even if legally you are protected, you may not get the money. this is such a grey area, especially when the business collapses due to fraud. imho, the best thing is not to keep cash in any platforms. why would you want to risk it? Speed need or process are reasons to keep some cash on platform. For secondary market trading one normally needs the cash on account before one can grab a bargain. For other platforms that automatically decide where your money will go it is essential if you wish to participate in investment.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Mar 4, 2018 10:04:03 GMT
Something has been troubling me for a while. If I have money left in "cash" on a fully registered FCA p2p platform and the platform decides to commit fraud by running off with it never to be seen again, will I be compensated? Similarly, if I "invest" into loans that don't exist and that money is stolen by the directors/owners again would I be compensated?
The answer to both questions is a "No". FSCS only covers qualifying "investments" eg cash on deposit in a bank covered by the scheme. P2P is explicitly not covered by the FSCS. Also, don't confuse being regulated by the FCA with any kind of compensation scheme existing and covering your P2P investments.
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jlend
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Post by jlend on Mar 4, 2018 12:16:51 GMT
Something has been troubling me for a while. If I have money left in "cash" on a fully registered FCA p2p platform and the platform decides to commit fraud by running off with it never to be seen again, will I be compensated? Similarly, if I "invest" into loans that don't exist and that money is stolen by the directors/owners again would I be compensated?
The answer to both questions is a "No". FSCS only covers qualifying "investments" eg cash on deposit in a bank covered by the scheme. P2P is explicitly not covered by the FSCS. Also, don't confuse being regulated by the FCA with any kind of compensation scheme existing and covering your P2P investments. Or if a P2P platform has given advice but I am not aware of any that do www.fscs.org.uk/news/2016/april/advice-to-invest-in-peer-to-peer-lending-may-now-be-covered-by-fscs/
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jlend
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Post by jlend on Mar 4, 2018 13:51:17 GMT
Something has been troubling me for a while. If I have money left in "cash" on a fully registered FCA p2p platform and the platform decides to commit fraud by running off with it never to be seen again, will I be compensated? Similarly, if I "invest" into loans that don't exist and that money is stolen by the directors/owners again would I be compensated?
The answer to both questions is a "No". FSCS only covers qualifying "investments" eg cash on deposit in a bank covered by the scheme. P2P is explicitly not covered by the FSCS. Also, don't confuse being regulated by the FCA with any kind of compensation scheme existing and covering your P2P investments. It is also worth bearing in mind that if this 4th way article is to be believed there are several p2p platforms that think FSCS cover is not available in their case even for cash www.4thway.co.uk/candid-opinion/p2p-lending-sites-offer-fscs-protection/
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Mar 4, 2018 17:19:08 GMT
So you could say we have a similar level of protection to other financial platforms such as share trading platforms?
If I invest on a share dealing platform, but my money is never put into a client account and instead goes towards the purchase of a new yacht of the Directors, I'm don't have any recourse to any compensation? Even though the FCA has said the company is fully authorised and regulated ?
I wonder if compulsory insurance against fraud would be a good idea. The risk (and thus the premiums) much surely be low for such a thing?
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jlend
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Post by jlend on Mar 4, 2018 17:32:30 GMT
So you could say we have a similar level of protection to other financial platforms such as share trading platforms? If I invest on a share dealing platform, but my money is never put into a client account and instead goes towards the purchase of a new yacht of the Directors, I'm don't have any recourse to any compensation? Even though the FCA has said the company is fully authorised and regulated ? I wonder if compulsory insurance against fraud would be a good idea. The risk (and thus the premiums) much surely be low for such a thing? www.bridgingandcommercial.co.uk/article-desc-11679_NACFB%20offers%20members%20‘unrestricted’%20insurance%20cover%20for%20peer-to-peerSome info on insurance cover available to p2p platforms Am not sure if any of the platforms publish what insurance they have in place.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Mar 4, 2018 18:59:57 GMT
Thanks for the link but it seems to be more about miss-selling insurance rather than fraud.
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jlend
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Post by jlend on Mar 4, 2018 19:12:58 GMT
Thanks for the link but it seems to be more about miss-selling insurance rather than fraud. I believe it's about the insurance now available to p2p lenders to cover things like miss selling Indemity insurance can also in my experience provide cover for things like fraud conducted by employees Axa for example offer such insurance "Dishonesty of employees - If a civil liability claim is made against your business because of fraud or dishonesty by someone working for you, we’ll cover your legal and compensation costs." What exactly is available to p2p lenders I don't know. Although not a P2P platform themselves Bond Mason have both professional indemnity and D&O (directors and officers) insurance for example. I'd be surprised if the p2p platforms didn't have something similar. What they have and the value of the insurance will likely vary by platform.
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