aju
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Post by aju on Mar 8, 2018 15:04:56 GMT
Okay so I have been checking some things on interest when a loan closes as a result of rapid return. Its the method used to sell loans in classic before transfering over to ISA as classic loans. The thing is I've checked some of my recently transferred Classic loans - see here for more on this - that are sold by RR and depending on the repayment day relative to the RR date there can be up to a months interest lost on a given loan as a result of the RR sale. It's not even the case that interest lost can be recouped in the new loans in the ISA side as the transfer has to by definition be isolated and independant. I checked one of my old RR and its definitely the case that a few pence on each loan may have been lost prior to the actual sale date there as well. Initially I assumed it was picked up in the final payment but doing the calculations that is not the case and thinking about this it cannot be that either as interest is taxable for many people so it must be possible to isolate this in the statements. So I checked what I could find on the RR to see if there was a note stating this may the case of lost interest in the final month prior to the sale. But could not find anything. My question then is does anybody else know this or better knows that RR has this proviso of losing the last periods interest as a terms of RR clause say. Even if they do have that I certainly do not have anything that says this would happen as a result of the ISA transfer of Classic loans.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Mar 8, 2018 15:22:27 GMT
To be honest, if it is a penny out, blame it on the decimal places. I could not withdraw the last penny and Zopa told me it's round up. If it is a few days out, given Zopa IT issues, Zopa will probably tells you a lot of things resulting no extra pennies.
If it is a couple of quid out, chase Zopa.
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aju
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Post by aju on Mar 8, 2018 16:20:05 GMT
To be honest, if it is a penny out, blame it on the decimal places. I could not withdraw the last penny and Zopa told me it's round up. If it is a few days out, given Zopa IT issues, Zopa will probably tells you a lot of things resulting no extra pennies. If it is a couple of quid out, chase Zopa. Its potentially more than a penny for 700+ loans I transfered I think. I've only checked 6 so far and its 15p. They were the biggest loans but who knows what they have done by this decision to use RR. Thing is usually the most repayments are made at the beginning of the month or the end of the month so because it was on the 13th I could still be losing quite a bit. Anyone where this takes place at the end of the month might be even worse affected. I haven't yet checked the effect on Mrs Aju - still doing monthly stats correlations. The 15p has already rounded down the individual interest amounts. This is not a decimal place issue I've allowed for that. Some of the bigger loans are at least £20 (They didn't transfer my even higher SG loans) and most have not been active for that long so they will be at the higher end of the interest receipts per loan too. To actually check it for real will be simpler for zopa than for me as its quite a task to find the individual payments since Zopa removed that part of the loanbook reports online. My statements files are so large that excel also takes a considerable amount of time to reproduce the payments list a for any given loan - even using all 8 threads of my processor. I've just identified the issue. Having read your threads and messages so far benaj if you are not worried about <£1 and you sold your loans out using RR then if I am affected you will/could be affected depending on when the loans sold out relative to your biggest repayment days. I have reported my findings to zopa and i'll see what they discover it should not take them with their resources - but they are a bit busy at the moment I think!. The site is up and down like a yoyo only today it was not possible to get to loanbook screen one had to find another approach to get both relevant CSV's which fortunately still worked. Not sure if loanbook is still OOS.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Mar 8, 2018 17:14:14 GMT
I understand what it feels like aju . Mine was a different story as I was quitting the Plus. Good luck and chase Zopa. Try ask Zopa for T&C for the ISA transfer. I can only imagine the transfer was done via Rapid return and Zopa has to sell the loans FIRST via RR ( which is not done INSTANTLY)and transfer the numeric value from one account to IFISA. Remember the Zopa selling process takes up to 20 working days, by the time you hit sell, it automatically tells you how much you receive, and I believe that figure does not change even if the loans are being sold late. This is probably another reason why cancelling loan sale is not easy and it takes more than 1 day (worse more than a week) because of the accrued interest. I had a decision to make, sell quickly or suffer more potential losses on the plus.
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Post by misotu on Mar 8, 2018 17:52:54 GMT
aju, I will be very interested to hear the outcome of this one. We have transferred somewhere between 400 and 500 loans, so the sums would be more than a few pence if you are correct. And right now, I am not terribly well-disposed towards Zopa Thanks for doing all the hard work. I wouldn't know where to start.
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Post by fuzzyiceberg on Mar 9, 2018 12:12:59 GMT
It is well known that when a loan is sold by RR the seller forgoes all accrued interest since the last payment. Similarly when you buy a loan that has been RR'd you get the benefit of any accrued interest. So for the transfer to ISA it will be swings and roundabouts, you lose on the sale and win on the purchase. What the net position is can only be found through an exhaustive loan by loan analysis which is prohibitive for anything but the smallest portfolio and will amount to peanuts anyway.
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Post by misotu on Mar 9, 2018 12:34:43 GMT
It is well known that when a loan is sold by RR the seller forgoes all accrued interest since the last payment. Similarly when you buy a loan that has been RR'd you get the benefit of any accrued interest. So for the transfer to ISA it will be swings and roundabouts, you lose on the sale and win on the purchase. What the net position is can only be found through an exhaustive loan by loan analysis which is prohibitive for anything but the smallest portfolio and will amount to peanuts anyway. It's demonstrably not "well-known", is it? A lot of people have never used RR - for many, this transfer to ISA might be their only experience of it. In seven years with Zopa, for example, I've only used it once so will own up to being unfamiliar with the small print. But thanks for the information.
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aju
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Post by aju on Mar 9, 2018 12:50:41 GMT
It is well known that when a loan is sold by RR the seller forgoes all accrued interest since the last payment. Similarly when you buy a loan that has been RR'd you get the benefit of any accrued interest. So for the transfer to ISA it will be swings and roundabouts, you lose on the sale and win on the purchase. What the net position is can only be found through an exhaustive loan by loan analysis which is prohibitive for anything but the smallest portfolio and will amount to peanuts anyway. So if its well known point me to this well known info, I searched Zopa for any indication of this both in RR and in transfer ISA and could not find anything that was the reason for my initial post. You may be right. With some purchases you can get an additional entry for an adjustment (RR upfront interest) is that perhaps what you are referring to?. Another point about this transfer is that it was advertised as no 1% fee to transfer the money - to my knowledge it didn't say interest due up to the date of any sale might/would be forgone in the process. As I said earlier in the thread I have flagged my position to Zopa we'll see what comes back.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Mar 9, 2018 13:03:16 GMT
It is well known that when a loan is sold by RR the seller forgoes all accrued interest since the last payment. Similarly when you buy a loan that has been RR'd you get the benefit of any accrued interest. So for the transfer to ISA it will be swings and roundabouts, you lose on the sale and win on the purchase. What the net position is can only be found through an exhaustive loan by loan analysis which is prohibitive for anything but the smallest portfolio and will amount to peanuts anyway. So if you don’t mind, have you witnessed any gaining accured interest bought loans that sold via RR?
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Mar 9, 2018 13:48:56 GMT
It is well known that when a loan is sold by RR the seller forgoes all accrued interest since the last payment. Similarly when you buy a loan that has been RR'd you get the benefit of any accrued interest. So for the transfer to ISA it will be swings and roundabouts, you lose on the sale and win on the purchase. What the net position is can only be found through an exhaustive loan by loan analysis which is prohibitive for anything but the smallest portfolio and will amount to peanuts anyway. So if its well known point me to this well known info, I searched Zopa for any indication of this both in RR and in transfer ISA and could not find anything that was the reason for my initial post. You may be right. With some purchases you can get an additional entry for an adjustment (RR upfront interest) is that perhaps what you are referring to?. Another point about this transfer is that it was advertised as no 1% fee to transfer the money - to my knowledge it didn't say interest due up to the date of any sale might/would be forgone in the process. As I said earlier in the thread I have flagged my position to Zopa we'll see what comes back. Excerpt From the FAQ 'Sell your Loans...' (my bold) 'Finally, accrued interest is not paid to the seller. If you have repayments due in 3 days, for example, but request a loan sale before then, you will not receive those repayments.' But this should not be a problem in your case as (as fuzzyiceburg said) you should get the interest on the buyer (ISA) side, even better tax free. You'll have to check your first ISA payments on those loans to see if that does happen. Edit: or maybe not if the ISA buys new loans. . Not sure if it's allowable for you to buy your own loans.
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aju
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Post by aju on Mar 9, 2018 14:14:29 GMT
I get what you are saying but in my case I was not given that information. I was not selling my loans Zopa was using that process, I was not aware of RR being used until I noticed that was how Mrs AJu's was done, hers was before mine. Not sure what the 3 days means as some of mine are from the beginning of the month. I think I'll go back and check that is the case. If it's true and applies in this though that's what Zopa will response will say..
Thanks for the pointer I will check it out. . .... . So I just checked out the FAQ that was given during the sign up to the transfer process. I saved everything ;-) and I have scanned the whole thing for anything that says I will not get interest on the loans. I guess, semantics wise, the start date is the deciding factor so for me its when I got the email informing me it will start in 2 working days. I'll go back and see what the dates were on the 6 I checked to see if there is a correlation.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Mar 9, 2018 15:00:51 GMT
I get what you are saying but in my case I was not given that information. I was not selling my loans Zopa was using that process, I was not aware of RR being used until I noticed that was how Mrs AJu's was done, hers was before mine. Not sure what the 3 days means as some of mine are from the beginning of the month. I think I'll go back and check that is the case. If it's true and applies in this though that's what Zopa will response will say.. Thanks for the pointer I will check it out. . .... . So I just checked out the FAQ that was given during the sign up to the transfer process. I saved everything ;-) and I have scanned the whole thing for anything that says I will not get interest on the loans. I guess, semantics wise, the start date is the deciding factor so for me its when I got the email informing me it will start in 2 working days. I'll go back and see what the dates were on the 6 I checked to see if there is a correlation. The wordings do not give an accurate picture earning interest during the transfer process from start to finish. What’s clear is money in the holding account does not earn interest. When the money is lent, then what is “your money?”. And what exactly is “continue as normal?” I give up. Zopa access does not allow lender access instantly and rapid return does not sell loans rapidly.
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aju
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Post by aju on Mar 9, 2018 17:18:10 GMT
Perhaps "continue as normal" means you will receive interest on the relevant day for each loan and if you then sell on say a day after that then you lose interest if its not on the right date. A small part of me thinks that fuzzyiceberg and Greenwood2 may be right in that they have scoured the bowels and found something or even worse fuzzy thinks everyone knows about this, except myself and misotu oh and Mrs Aju - she's not very happy and suggested poking the FCA, again;-). The only thing I have on my side, I think, is that I have signed a contract to a specific sale where I was not made aware that this was RR or that the sale would mean I might not get all the interest I think I am due and nothing in that contract - I have a PDF copy, clearly states this. It's not acceptable to later on point me at a FAQ after the fact that indicates what has happened is acceptable. I should have been point at that actual effect and perhaps even advised this may be costly. I'm definitely wondering what the FCA would think of that approach. I would point out that I had to have a number of attempts at find that FAQ and only narrowed it down by using the term "accrued interest". If it hadn't have been for Greenwood2's response above I might not even have considered that as a search item. What I will say though is that when Zopa had their own forum and Zopa people were frequenting it they might have picked up some of these threads and tried to change things. I'm not sure these days they give a d*a*m*n or worse have the time or inclination to.
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Post by misotu on Mar 10, 2018 2:18:56 GMT
Yup, aju, I'm with you. I think what fuzzy isn't taking into account when he talks of "peanuts" and tends to patronise, is that quite a few of us have been putting up with an utterly shambolic performance from Zopa for many months now. It has cost us money, exasperation, anxiety and time. And that ain't peanuts.
Oh, and edited to add that *my* money that was erroneously put back on the market, contrary to my explicit instructions, will also, presumably, be re-sold in accordance with those rr rules that are so "well known". Which means, presumably, that, to add insult to injury, I will be paying the new lenders *my* interest on money that I didn't agree to lend.
It may be peanuts, but those are *my* peanuts, fuzzy, and I want them.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Mar 10, 2018 8:12:46 GMT
Zopa is the oldest p2plending daddy, I think the loan sale process was designed to prevent liquidity to keep zopa being one of the largest p2p lender. Today it lends more than £2m everyday.
On other platforms, individuals can buy loans on the secondary market, the buyers pay the accrued interests upfront and the sellers receive the capital and the accrued interest even if the borrower is going into default in the next 4 months.
Other secondary platforms offer discount and premium for selling loans. All systems have flaws and risks in p2plending I suppose.
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