blink
Member of DD Central
Posts: 94
Likes: 119
|
Post by blink on Apr 29, 2018 18:19:09 GMT
I have sent BDO an e-mail with my name, e-mail, amount on platform, list of loans. I have the dubious honour of being one of the last in, I think ![O_o](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/browraise.png) but at least it was only a very little toe dipped into the crocodile-infested waters. Why did you do that? Did they request information and I missed it? BDO and the FCA are setting up deicated websites...links on forum somewhere with first posts stating state of play just after court case..Basically they will be updating us with what is required from us. The BDO guy said he was on leave for a week immediately after the case. They did mention that they would like to liaise with a small consortium of lenders to represent us. And they could feed back.. Also stated it was their job to return monies to all lenders be the big institutions or the local milkman. Anyone with an interest can apply. They are very keen to get on with the job in hand.
|
|
mason
Member of DD Central
Posts: 662
Likes: 640
|
Post by mason on Apr 29, 2018 18:53:00 GMT
My thought process is that if Col are holding interest payments which were due to us but collected by them on our behalf, then they owe that money to us. Therefore they are in debt to us for that amount and we are by nature of that, their creditors. This is the line COL used to call in RR. However, interest was retained up front, presumably in a segregated account and drip-fed to us individually. In theory, the only money that should be in COL's hands is money in flight - either in the process of being advanced to the borrower, or received from them when the loan is made. So it's really investments in the loans that weren't drawn down that are most likely to make people creditors.
|
|
investibod
Member of DD Central
Posts: 288
Likes: 152
|
Post by investibod on Apr 29, 2018 21:44:51 GMT
This is the line COL used to call in RR. However, interest was retained up front, presumably in a segregated account and drip-fed to us individually. In theory, the only money that should be in COL's hands is money in flight - either in the process of being advanced to the borrower, or received from them when the loan is made. So it's really investments in the loans that weren't drawn down that are most likely to make people creditors. Thanks mason but if Col retained the interest up front, then does that not mean that they are still holding the money that should have been paid to us? It seems that the segregated client account may not have been as segregated as it should. However, I agree that the non drawn down loans are likely to to be a much larger amount.
|
|
elliotn
Member of DD Central
Posts: 3,064
Likes: 2,681
|
Post by elliotn on Apr 30, 2018 5:13:23 GMT
I am no expert in these matters, so welcome an explanation of why I am wrong, but until then my belief is this: We are not creditors of Collateral regarding the loans presently with the borrowers. The deal is between ourselves and the borrowers with Col acting as agents/facilitators. However, regarding interest (and any capital) payments made by the borrowers to Col, we are creditors as Col have our money - unless it has been spirited away. The same applies to any money we invested which never made it to borrowers. If we are not creditors, then the only conclusion I can think of is that we be victims of theft and/or fraud. One potential flaw is that CUK did not have the permissions to draw up loans between lenders and borrowers on an electronic platform, so are we directly secured? Prepaid interest should be held in borrowers' client accounts to be transferred to us and undrawn loans should not yet have been transferred to any borrowers' bank accounts so all uninvested cash should be segregated. Of course, CUK did not have permission to run a client account either. FCA/BDO are however chasing monies allegedly taken from thsee "client" accounts so it may be their intention to administrate this as the substance of a p2p living will even if legally it is not. These should be addressed in their proposal and updates, also if the transcripts pop up there may be additional information not relayed in court. Disclosure - as an investor with nearly 70% in (hopefully) mostly safety deposited bling and over 6% in cash/undrawn funds, I have a vested interest in their being a fully segregated client account with individually secured assets rather than a pooled investment for secured creditors.
|
|
jj
Member of DD Central
Jolly Jammy
Posts: 320
Likes: 358
|
Post by jj on Apr 30, 2018 5:24:06 GMT
Please find below an email that was send to me:- Dear Mr Owl Collateral (UK) Limited Collateral Sales Limited Collateral Security Trustee Limited (together, ‘the Collateral Companies’) – All in Administration Thank you for your email. As you may be aware, Shane Crooks and Mark Shaw, both partners in BDO LLP, were appointed as joint administrators of the Collateral Companies by the High Court in Manchester on 27 April 2018. We are currently taking steps to gain control of the Collateral Companies, and intend to undertake an immediate review of and investigation into their affairs. We will be liaising with investors in respect of their investments in due course. There are no immediate steps that investors need to take in respect of the administrations. In the meantime, we have set up a dedicated website that provides initial information to both investors/creditors and borrowers of the Collateral Companies. I provide the website link below: www.bdo.co.uk/en-gb/collateral-companies-in-administrationThis website will be updated periodically and will be used to provide updates to stakeholders on the progress of the administrations. Further information will be added shortly, including a Frequently Asked Questions section. I should be grateful if you would direct future correspondence to the below email addresses going forward investorcollateral@bdo.co.uk (for investors) or borrowercollateral@bdo.co.uk (for borrowers) Kind regards Sarantis I know some don't want to email or inquire the administrator due to costs so I hope by posting this they don't have to.
|
|
mason
Member of DD Central
Posts: 662
Likes: 640
|
Post by mason on Apr 30, 2018 5:54:54 GMT
This is the line COL used to call in RR. However, interest was retained up front, presumably in a segregated account and drip-fed to us individually. In theory, the only money that should be in COL's hands is money in flight - either in the process of being advanced to the borrower, or received from them when the loan is made. So it's really investments in the loans that weren't drawn down that are most likely to make people creditors. Thanks mason but if Col retained the interest up front, then does that not mean that they are still holding the money that should have been paid to us? It seems that the segregated client account may not have been as segregated as it should. However, I agree that the non drawn down loans are likely to to be a much larger amount. Until such time as we are told that the ring-fencing is compromised, then those assets can be assumed to be held in a segregated account. As elliotn points out, proceedings so far have made numerous references to the clients account, which appears to be treated as if it were separate from business assets so far. Personally, I think the electronic platform arguments may be a red herring in light of other comments about entirely self-select products, but only time will tell.
|
|
jonbvn
Member of DD Central
Posts: 326
Likes: 95
|
Post by jonbvn on Apr 30, 2018 6:00:40 GMT
Taken from this BDO website:
|
|
mouse
Posts: 55
Likes: 29
|
Post by mouse on Apr 30, 2018 7:14:46 GMT
Would it be worthwhile for a separate thread to be set up for BDO released investor info. Might be useful to have it all in one place ?
|
|
shimself
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,562
Likes: 1,171
|
Post by shimself on Apr 30, 2018 9:11:05 GMT
I thought there were, it could only go back to the payer account (ie lender account 1:1) or to a borrower client account (ie multiple lenders to single borrower) which would be verified by the bank when requested. Let me come back on this. Here’s a link to the institute of chartered accountants' client account guidelines (what I saw from fca was basically a template signed by directors not to misuse the monies) - I haven't read details yet as need to hit the sack but happy to come back on this if anyone can't get head around it: www.icaew.com/-/media/corporate/files/members/practice-centre/clients-money/clients-money-regulations-effective-1-january-2017.ashxEdit - looks like responsibility is designated to a principal at the firm ie not bank's responsibility but any breaches would be a joint and several liability of the principlals in light of any disciplinary actions ie can chase the directors personally should anything untoward be proven. This document is for accountancy firms, so not really the same situation. However I take the point that in this context the bank aren't required to do any monitoring other than signatures. Thanks The focus of client accounts here is that the bank isn't entitled to get their mitts on any of the money therein (by way of grabbing bank charges, reducing overdraft etc)
|
|
averageguy
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,168
Likes: 844
|
Post by averageguy on Apr 30, 2018 10:02:00 GMT
The BDO information will surely all be on the BDO website that has been set up. "This website will be updated periodically and will be used to provide updates to stakeholders on the progress of the administrations. Further information will be added shortly, including a Frequently Asked Questions section." Sadly, it may take weeks for anything significant to come through? Much as I would like my money back asap I don't think that is going to happen - maybe not even this year. In the meantime:
"There are no immediate steps that investors need to take in respect of the administrations."
The more people who email asking the same questions, the more it will likely cost all of us.
There is some discussion on the other forum (the purple one) about how various pots of money and loans may be treated and the simple answer seems to be that no-one yet knows. So no point in asking. It is obviously a question that BDO will be addressing.
By the way, why suddenly two forums? Maybe I shouldn't ask the question?
You already have
|
|
|
Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Apr 30, 2018 10:09:21 GMT
The BDO information will surely all be on the BDO website that has been set up. "This website will be updated periodically and will be used to provide updates to stakeholders on the progress of the administrations. Further information will be added shortly, including a Frequently Asked Questions section." Sadly, it may take weeks for anything significant to come through? Much as I would like my money back asap I don't think that is going to happen - maybe not even this year. In the meantime:
"There are no immediate steps that investors need to take in respect of the administrations."
The more people who email asking the same questions, the more it will likely cost all of us.
There is some discussion on the other forum (the purple one) about how various pots of money and loans may be treated and the simple answer seems to be that no-one yet knows. So no point in asking. It is obviously a question that BDO will be addressing.
By the way, why suddenly two forums? Maybe I shouldn't ask the question?
You already have Does look that way. If you read the other forum, I think you will find he is the bit of the saying that goes before 'Sheppard's Delight'. Seems incredibly keen for everybody to stop looking into this in any detail. Somebody should tell them nothing makes us more curious.
|
|
averageguy
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,168
Likes: 844
|
Post by averageguy on Apr 30, 2018 12:08:59 GMT
Does look that way. If you read the other forum, I think you will find he is the bit of the saying that goes before 'Sheppard's Delight'. Seems incredibly keen for everybody to stop looking into this in any detail. Somebody should tell them nothing makes us more curious. Ah that poster ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Bold! I've been on that other forum.....and dared to have an opinion...last time i try that. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
|
|
|
Post by thecleaner on Apr 30, 2018 16:09:48 GMT
Perhaps a bit premature to be worrying about interest payments (and sorry I realise not just you, you're just the latest to have mentioned it)....primary concern should be getting our capital back.....(and no this does not mean I'm waiving any interest in my interest! ![(rofl)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/rofl.png) ) Agreed. If I come out of this with anything like 100% capital return, I will feel very lucky that the learning experience was not as painful as it could have been. I am just wondering why you would think we would mot come out with anything like 100%. If the loans are all functioning and all the bling and other bits and bobs are still there then why is it not possible. I must admit i dont really understand this bit about the 400k being drawn out of the client account for so called wages or business expenses or whatever they called it. Surely this should not be touched. Does this mean they have stolen this from us?. What sought of % can you see being returned to us and if its anything less than 100% do we have a legal case on our hands to get the rest because i presume we all dont just take this lying down.
|
|
mason
Member of DD Central
Posts: 662
Likes: 640
|
Post by mason on Apr 30, 2018 17:14:36 GMT
Agreed. If I come out of this with anything like 100% capital return, I will feel very lucky that the learning experience was not as painful as it could have been. I am just wondering why you would think we would mot come out with anything like 100%. If the loans are all functioning and all the bling and other bits and bobs are still there then why is it not possible. I must admit i dont really understand this bit about the 400k being drawn out of the client account for so called wages or business expenses or whatever they called it. Surely this should not be touched. Does this mean they have stolen this from us?. What sought of % can you see being returned to us and if its anything less than 100% do we have a legal case on our hands to get the rest because i presume we all dont just take this lying down. The money was taken by one of the directors as "business profits" which it clearly was not, resulting in his account being frozen and an asset search being launched. Seems likely to be theft and perhaps not the only instance of it. The FCA have indicated they don't believe a 100p in the pound return for lender-investors is realistic and they probably know more than we do.
|
|
investibod
Member of DD Central
Posts: 288
Likes: 152
|
Post by investibod on Apr 30, 2018 19:39:57 GMT
Agreed. If I come out of this with anything like 100% capital return, I will feel very lucky that the learning experience was not as painful as it could have been. I am just wondering why you would think we would mot come out with anything like 100%. If the loans are all functioning and all the bling and other bits and bobs are still there then why is it not possible. I must admit i dont really understand this bit about the 400k being drawn out of the client account for so called wages or business expenses or whatever they called it. Surely this should not be touched. Does this mean they have stolen this from us?. What sought of % can you see being returned to us and if its anything less than 100% do we have a legal case on our hands to get the rest because i presume we all dont just take this lying down. I can see that the administrators need to take a short term view. If a loan defaults they will not realistically be able to give them more time for a better overall resolution. If the borrowers cannot refinance quickly, then the administrators will need to foreclose and have a fire sale to realise as much return as possible in a short time. This is not conducive to 100% return if the loan has any issues at all. At the rates administrators charge, it may well not be in our interests for them to draw things out longer than they have to.
|
|