cwah
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Post by cwah on May 9, 2018 10:11:57 GMT
Is there any way to find out how much the borrower put down in any of these loans?
We always see completely unrealistic valuations to get as much money as possible.. but if we can see how much skin in the game the developer put down, it will really tell us how much risk is shared between the investor and the borrower.
Any way to find that out?
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on May 9, 2018 14:04:47 GMT
Is there any way to find out how much the borrower put down in any of these loans? We always see completely unrealistic valuations to get as much money as possible.. but if we can see how much skin in the game the developer put down, it will really tell us how much risk is shared between the investor and the borrower. Any way to find that out? In a word - no. I can only think of one platform where the loan investment proposition may contain this information but generally my impression since being involved with P2P lending are the background details regarding the loan ‘opportunity’ have gradually been slimmed down. Many platforms over time have tried to force feed investors the impression that it's all to do with the asset. The borrower, especially their background is immaterial. As platforms seem to be having more difficulty in filling loans then this may change although personally I do not feel it is in their DNA to do so. You could always ask them direct. Whether you receive an answer or one you can rely on is debatable.
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rocky1
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Post by rocky1 on May 9, 2018 14:52:02 GMT
lendy themselves put nothing into any loans. they just take as much as they can when a loan is drawn down. as for borrowers having any skin in the loans i feel most just set up spvs or ltd co then approach lendy for as much as lendy will let them have on a field/car park/derilict building or almost anything.come up with some dfl idea and some crazy valuations and a few computer pics and their good to go.they dont need to put a penny in. lendy will just give it to them to get their own cut.
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empirica
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Post by empirica on May 9, 2018 20:21:09 GMT
When it happens, Lendy has mentioned it. For example DFL018: "The borrower will be injecting a total of £600,000 towards the total build costs of £1,810,000."
There was another DFL where the updates stated something along the lines of 'the borrower continues to fund the build costs themselves' but I can't remember which loan that is / was.
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cwah
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Post by cwah on May 9, 2018 22:58:20 GMT
Yeah that's what I thought as well.
I'm now not investing in any 100% funding loan as valuation are fantaisiste.
For sure, the valuer they got are not the same we get from the bank. 90% of the time the valuer give an estimate way off the value of the security.
Then they'd just highlight in little star that it was subject to planning being fine and no surprises coming... As if the job of the valuer wasn't to identify surprises before hand!
Any way we could have saying for each loan how much skin in the game was put by the borrower? Should be displayed mandatorily, especially for those with 100% investors findings!
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empirica
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Post by empirica on May 10, 2018 21:20:28 GMT
Yeah that's what I thought as well. I'm now not investing in any 100% funding loan as valuation are fantaisiste. For sure, the valuer they got are not the same we get from the bank. 90% of the time the valuer give an estimate way off the value of the security. Then they'd just highlight in little star that it was subject to planning being fine and no surprises coming... As if the job of the valuer wasn't to identify surprises before hand!Any way we could have saying for each loan how much skin in the game was put by the borrower? Should be displayed mandatorily, especially for those with 100% investors findings! I wouldn't say it was the valuer's job to identify surprises beforehand. I'd say their job was to identify the middle ground. What normally has been the case and will therefor likely be the case in the near future. If a particular valuation is badly miscalculated, proving it isn't simply a case of say 'You said it was worth £2 million, but it only sold for £1 million.' Proving it is having several independent assessors look at the data available at the time and see whether the wrong data was used or whether method was applied incorrectly. As for skin in the game, the idea of every investor is to minimise their risk. Developers are investors and they are entitled to minimise their risk, by using as little of their capital as possible.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on May 11, 2018 7:43:47 GMT
But it's still useful to know how little the borrower put in, especially if it turns out to be a negative number.
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copacetic
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Post by copacetic on May 11, 2018 11:58:36 GMT
As for skin in the game, the idea of every investor is to minimise their risk. Developers are investors and they are entitled to minimise their risk, by using as little of their capital as possible. While this is true it would be sensible for the platform or us as investors to determine what exactly the borrower will lose if the loan goes into recovery before putting our money into it. That said I think there is a very good case for platform credibility to take on risk and invest a significant proportion of their loan origination fee into the loan itself on the same terms as the rest of investors or even on a first loss basis (via say a wholly owned subsidiary company if that would keep the FCA happy). It might not be in the platform's best short term interest but I think that aligning goals with investors would see a definite improvement in decision making (e.g. not selling well secured loans at a discount, making more careful assesments of credit risk when originating new loans, investment in improving recovery effectiveness). Personally I would be a lot more confident in loans where the platform has a solid financial incentive to see loans repaid in full Currently if a borrower stands to lose nothing and the platform makes most of its money risk free from origination fees and rolled up interest then lenders are more likely to be encouraged to take on rubbish loans on which they will lose money. A platform where investors lose money does not have a long term furture.
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on May 11, 2018 16:25:06 GMT
"As for skin in the game, the idea of every investor is to minimise their risk. Developers are investors and they are entitled to minimise their risk, by using as little of their capital as possible."
Isn't that the point though? We have to put hard earned Capital in, Developers rarely do, they often "invest" nothing?
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