pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on May 30, 2018 11:21:58 GMT
...KYC is another matter altogether: I'm highly sceptical about whether this is a good idea, or even workable given the current thoughts about data privacy. Hmmm. Data privacy is one political imperative, but another is dealing with fake news / trolling / whatever, by people hiding behind false identities.
I think the direction of travel for the whole internet (in the western world anyway) is that KYC will become mandatory in an attempt to deal with the latter. It wouldn't bother me.
Obviously user data needs to be protected, which is one reason why there is (already) regulation around data privacy.
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star dust
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Post by star dust on May 30, 2018 12:06:43 GMT
I also greatly value the forum and appreciate the work of the mods. If this forum were to become unmoderated then I'd be gone, because the **** would take over and I have no time for fighting my way through it. I'd have to look for a new home, which might have to be somewhere big enough (MSE?) to be able to run commercially and pay the mods. I get the point about incorporating to reduce individual liability; what I'm not clear about is the financial business case. What are the anticipated setup and running costs? This seems to be a critical point that isn't yet clear. If those costs are small enough to be covered by reasonable advertising targets, then great. OTOH, if the model requires unrealistic levels of advertising or referral income or donations then we are into a subscriber model, and I'm not sure that will fly. KYC is another matter altogether: I'm highly sceptical about whether this is a good idea, or even workable given the current thoughts about data privacy.
In case you missed it, appearing in the subscription and donation poll threads, but not this one I think. Up to this point the running costs have been minimal, and have been covered by donations (1:1 mapping of donors to bills). Essentially the current costs are domain registration fees for our .com domain and proboards hosting fees for the forum (its not free for custom domains). The next bill for the domain registration is due for payment in November. Going forwards, the proposal is to create a not for profit company ("limited by guarantee"). This will incur set up costs, and on going costs associated with companies house, and virtual service address / registered office forwarding, bank fees, accountancy fees for example. As mentioned in the main thread, costs will be incurred for ongoing legal advice concerning the forum rules and forum operation, professional indemity and other insurances, ico registration (GDPR) etc. The costs will vary year to year, and will be kept as low as possible, but could be expected to be a low four figure sum each year. As with any company, accounts would be filed at companies house. Without the forum being a legal entity in its own right, it is pretty much impossible to procure appropriate insurance for the forum staff, and to register where necessary for things such as data protection.
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dandy
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Post by dandy on May 30, 2018 12:23:53 GMT
My 2 cents
No to KYC
No to Subscriptions
No to referrals (conflict of interests)
Yes to "private" donations
Yes to "fixed" platform fee (for a board)
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ceejay
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Post by ceejay on May 30, 2018 12:26:49 GMT
...KYC is another matter altogether: I'm highly sceptical about whether this is a good idea, or even workable given the current thoughts about data privacy. Hmmm. Data privacy is one political imperative, but another is dealing with fake news / trolling / whatever, by people hiding behind false identities.
I think the direction of travel for the whole internet (in the western world anyway) is that KYC will become mandatory in an attempt to deal with the latter. It wouldn't bother me.
Obviously user data needs to be protected, which is one reason why there is (already) regulation around data privacy.
I understand the "Hmmm". It's a tricky one. I suppose one part of my visceral reaction against a forum like this one going down the KYC route is the extent of the paperwork (ok, electronic paperwork) and intrusion involved. To establish who I am to (say) a bank I have to share things like my passport, driving licence, credit record... and I might bring myself (just) to trust a bank with this information (because there is a financial incentive, and I know there is no avoiding it).
But sharing that information with a bunch of guys I don't know (no disrespect to the team!) for an activity that is optional? The balance of risk and reward is very different.
Longer term, I agree that the direction of travel may well be for the use of confirmed identities when appearing in public places on the internet, but I think that there may be just a little bit of technical innovation to make this painless and safe. Nothing technically difficult, I think, but I just don't see it yet.
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Post by davee39 on May 30, 2018 12:33:58 GMT
Clearly the mods & admins are concerned by the regular use of terms such as fraud, scam and ponzi levelled at most platforms, sometimes as a result of the slightest inconvenience. As a result some members have gone off to the new unrestrained free speech shouty board where they can vent all they like. But what is the board for? P2P has matured, but in general it has not become mainstream, or even profitable. Flavour of the month platforms pop up offering high rates only to succumb to sustained venom as lenders are surprised by defaults.
I am running down all my P2P holdings due to concerns that current low rates do not generally reflect the risks associated with the next recession, when the BOE will have no tools left to help the economy. (Moving to FSCS protected 1 year bonds for now).
Personally I think the board has run it's course & sadly too much effort is being expended trying to maintain it.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on May 31, 2018 7:45:24 GMT
As a former volunteer Mod who stood down, I'm amused at those suggesting that Admins / Mods simply "shouldn't worry about legal liability". That's very easy to say when you're not the one potentially in the firing line but I can tell you it feels rather different when a platform starts threatening legal action against forum staff for "damaging their business". As has been pointed out already, even if such action was found totally baseless, the costs of hiring a lawyer to defend it could be considerable. There came a point where, waking up each morning to a string of reported posts containing unfounded, potentially defamatory allegations of myriad platform misdeeds, I just decided I could do without the grief. I suggest anyone who feels otherwise and would happily stick their head above the parapet to become one of the forum "janitors" (keeping out spammers, moving stuff around, clearing up foul language, disposing of trash, stopping fights, etc.) should drop a message to Admin and volunteer their time! |
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on May 31, 2018 9:38:43 GMT
As a former volunteer Mod who stood down, I'm amused at those suggesting that Admins / Mods simply "shouldn't worry about legal liability". That's very easy to say when you're not the one potentially in the firing line but I can tell you it feels rather different when a platform starts threatening legal action against forum staff for "damaging their business". As has been pointed out already, even if such action was found totally baseless, the costs of hiring a lawyer to defend it could be considerable. There came a point where, waking up each morning to a string of reported posts containing unfounded, potentially defamatory allegations of myriad platform misdeeds, I just decided I could do without the grief. I suggest anyone who feels otherwise and would happily stick their head above the parapet to become one of the forum "janitors" (keeping out spammers, moving stuff around, clearing up foul language, disposing of trash, stopping fights, etc.) should drop a message to Admin and volunteer their time! You have done the right thing, i.e. step down given your worries. Everyone should always follow their feelings. But at the same time I have participated and will continue to participate in numerous moderators-free (unmoderated) forums. They do work well even if they are less organised than these. The goal for me is to gather and exchange information and for my goals a free unmoderated forum would be more than sufficient. Certainly I would not participate in any paid-for community. And there I thought your goal was to grumble, with a bit of moaning & ranting thrown in. I feel misled by your moniker, please change to the 'gatherer' or 'exchanger' (collector might suffice but only with a small c as capitalised is a trademark of the Marvellous Mouse people) 
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Post by jackpease on May 31, 2018 10:13:39 GMT
>>> when a platform starts threatening legal action against forum staff for "damaging their business". Okay which platform(s)? You are completely protected from libel because you are dealing not just with a fact, but also a fact that you can prove (the complaint). Please post! Jack P
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on May 31, 2018 10:21:42 GMT
>>> when a platform starts threatening legal action against forum staff for "damaging their business". Okay which platform(s)? You are completely protected from libel because you are dealing not just with a fact, but also a fact that you can prove (the complaint). Please post! Jack P Yup, I understand that but I choose not to name them. Lets just say I'm somewhat ambivalent about Leeds these days.
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Post by jackpease on May 31, 2018 10:57:31 GMT
Ahhh in happier days they sent out some lovely cake from a baker that we were all funding!
Jack P
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adrian77
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Post by adrian77 on May 31, 2018 11:15:50 GMT
reminds me of my time in South Africa where we used to bake cakes with sour dough!
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registerme
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Post by registerme on May 31, 2018 14:34:43 GMT
There were two main reasons for me standing down as a mod. First my perception of the legal risks in play changed (eg the occasional heavy handed move by a platform to put pressure on staff, MT's recent changes to their Ts&Cs* or GDPR). Second I simply got tired of tidying up after people who should know better (bad language, sexist comments, racist comments, sniping at each other, mod baiting, borrower identification etc etc etc). I accept that some people disagree with my assessment of the legal risks. I accept that some people think that (some of) the forum rules are misguided and cause rather than prevent problems. But that's the way I felt. Some form of incorporation would provide staff with some protection against legal risk. But this would also involve some costs (company registration, annual accounts, possibly professional indemnity insurance etc) in addition to the mundane domain name registration and hosting type costs and so on. As I see it the other advantage of a subscription model, particularly when combined with some form of KYC / non-anonymous forum presence is that it would:- a) eliminate spammers b) significantly reduce the risk of shills c) give people cause to stop and think before they misbehave d) give people something to lose if they misbehave e) improve the signal to noise ratio in terms of post quality All of the above would make the life of the staff considerably more bearable and generally add value to the forum. However all of the above will incur costs, so how are they to be met? I think a donation model is potentially unreliable and I wouldn't want to be on the hook for anything. I'm happy with a subscription model. I am ambivalent about a referral model (I'm not sure how material it would be but I accept that anything involving platform payments might bring the forums independence into question). Additionally if funds are to be raised, for everything to be above board, they need to go somewhere "real" ie a legal entity / registered charity / whatever, and not just to a random bank account. As part of this I would advocate that:- a) the forum no longer be globally readable (if people are paying for this, I think they have a right not to want to give the benefit away for free) b) remove the requirement for borrower anonymity (lessening the burden on staff and providing fewer things for forum members to trip up on). c) that any "profits" be donated to a charity, perhaps Kiva? There are also questions to answer - how would platforms be represented, would a more limited membership (because as we can already see the number of people willing to contribute is, unfortunately, depressingly small) be beneficial or a negative, what would the ramifications for the industry be? What's the alternative, shutting down this forum and more Franks and UGFs appearing, or everything moving to MSE, or the platforms clubbing together to provide their own service? As it is I'd be glad to donate to keep this place running and help move it onto a more sustainable footing. But hey, not everybody will agree with the above, them's the breaks  . RM * To be fair I should state that MT dispute that their recent Ts&Cs updates changed my risk (as a staff member) at all, I just happened to disagree with them. |
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Post by justuslee on May 31, 2018 15:09:54 GMT
I have been toying with whether or not to reply to this post for some time. In my opinion, the lions share of posts are genuinely constructive, however there has always been a concern of posters hidden agendas and potentially destructive and naieve comments, polls etc.
I would like to see this forum continue, however as the sector is regulated and this forum is monitored, they’re has to be an element of accountability for it to survive. You can trust most platform representatives comments to have been professionally considered and worthy of publication, and they’re now just needs to be a validation of forumites. Quick i.d verification is relatively inexpensive, at most a couple of £ and can be passed on at cost I’m sure. I’m more than happy to help and introduce to suppliers in that regards.
So my proposal would be; work out the annual cost of administration and divide by willing platforms, UK FCA regulated only. Too much risk otherwise.
A public read only forum continues as extremely valuable for the crowd.
1 list of UK platforms - no secret sub-forum private room nonsense.
1 validated i.d forum member re-subscription and subscription - doesn’t have to be a full AML/KYC. If they won’t agree then why, remove from the forum.
Otherwise it will be MSE only.
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Post by Admin on Jun 1, 2018 10:44:49 GMT
Many thanks for all the comments and votes on this important subject, they are all valuable input into the discussions that have been going on for a while evaluating the concept of a not for profit company, and the most appropriate means of raising revenue to cover its costs. A reminder for those yet to vote that the polls will be open for another week, and comments/views are still welcome. Some options are clearly less palatable than others, but the business plan needs to consider all the possible fallback options, so nothing is being ruled in or out at this stage. During this week we have received a couple of offers to purchase the forum (one for 1p and one for an unspecified amount) both on behalf of offshore entities (one in a tax haven) at least one of which has stated the intention to run the forum on a commercial basis. If the point comes that the forum has to be closed by the current admin/mod team as being unviable, we will explore options such as these to see if some continuity could be provided for the community. However, for now, the forum staff team believe a not for profit structure with an option for participation by forum members in the company is desirable, along with the transparency that incorporating in the UK provides. Forum members rightly criticise borrowers for hiding behind offshore entities, it would be a shame if the forum itself came under similar criticism. A query has been raised with respect to forum members who have pledged donations (thank-you ) to cover the impending renewal of the domain in November. Our current thinking is the forum will be incorporated before the renewal is due, such that the legal liability as the domain owner from the point of renewal rests with the limited company and not the individual whose credit card would otherwise have to be used to pay for the renewal. Any donations to the forum's not for profit company would then go towards (or pay for) domain hosting and other costs. |
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Post by easteregg on Jun 1, 2018 12:43:13 GMT
There are a number of pros and cons to incorporating:
The costs to incorporate are relatively small. A company would need a business bank account. A company is required to submit an annual return to Companies House and to pay any tax due. As a company director you could still be held liable, especially for submitting an annual return. As a company director you position would be on public record. A company with no assets is unlikely to be sued, but could still be threatened. Company insurance would be required.
It is possible to determine the returns you could get from advertising. Take the monthly unique visitor figure, and multiply by 0.005, and that would be a rough monthly income.
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