daveb4
Member of DD Central
Posts: 220
Likes: 116
|
Post by daveb4 on Jun 25, 2018 10:53:27 GMT
I was just checking my half year numbers and not surprisingly was interested in my non performing/no interest paying loans. I invest across 8 platforms. My main goal 3 years ago when I started was ideally 10%pa. Like many here I am sure the last year has not been so much fun, lower rates and higher risk. Presently my portfolio has 8% non performing and 10% with Coll. To be fair my 8% I am hopeful to get most back if I include the ones that will pay back giving interest to cover losses on the ones that don't. Coll, who knows . The obvious issue however is 18% of my portfolio is not earning interest and with likely losses which obviously impacts on APR significantly. So now my overall portfolio is probably only earning 7%, risk v reward? What are others mix?
|
|
|
Post by wiseclerk on Jun 25, 2018 11:17:02 GMT
This will vary widely by platforms used and especially Investment strategy
I have 0% on Lendy, Estateguru, Lendix and nearly 0% on Linked Finance. On the other end I have a high percentage on Bondora and I would have a high percentage on Fellow Finance if I would not sell them on the secondary market? Then there are the platforms with buyback guarantees. Obviously the percentage is always 0%, until Desaster would strike (platform or loan originator inability/failure to honor this 'guarantee')
Now what can you deduct from this? Because I am actually reducing Lendy at the Moment, Lendix is not that interesting (scaling, no autoinvest), while Bondora is one of the platforms delivering me best ROI in my portfolio. In my view non Performing loans are just part of the deal. What counts is the ROI after defaults, recoveries (and tax if you cannot offset Default losses against interest)
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 12:02:25 GMT
The trouble is non-performing assets accumulate while performing ones go on their merry way, so in this sort of business you will generally always have more and more non-performing loans. I suspect the trick is 1) choose portals who know what they are doing in bringing a loan to us and 2) choose portals who are competent at managing non-performing assets. Then there is COL :-)
|
|
|
Post by samford71 on Jun 25, 2018 12:35:17 GMT
I've been doing secured direct lending (mainly bridges, but some SME loans etc) since 2002. These are typically quite risky lends with yields of 15-18% and LTVs of 50-70% (so equivalent in risk to loans you see on P2P platforms at 10-12%). My rule of thumb is that about 10% of my portfolio will be genuine NPLs (so recovery action required, not a technical default) once the portfolio has reached some sort of equilibrium.
I would expect NPLs on P2P platforms to be somewhat higher (normalizing for equivalent risk say, so RS would not be as high as SS clearly). First, it takes some time for P2P platforms to reach the equilibrium point. As P2P platforms tend to refuse to write down NPLs unless they are absolutely forced to, this risks an eventual day of reckoning where the defaults that should have been recognized in prior year's loan cohorts have to be accepted. So the NPL rate can overshoot the equilibrium for a period to make up for a low NPL rate early on. Second, P2P platforms tend to want to "treat the customer" fairly. "Customer" means borrower, not lender. So they are rather slow going after NPLs and no where near ruthless enough to generate good recoveries. Third, (and rather obviously) the process of writing down NPLs reduces the percentage of NPLs in the book. If I have a £1mm portfolio with 20% in NPLs and I write those NPLs down by 50%, I am left with £900k and £100k of NPLs, just 11% on the book.
I'm of the opinion that P2P platforms should be forced to write down every loan to some degree using an accounting standard somewhat like IFRS9. That would require every loan at the point it is originated to be provided with a credit charge based on expected losses, and then these losses adjusted to reflect future economic conditions and the specifics of the loan (so once it's an NPL, the default probability is 100% and it's all about recovery). If self-select type investors saw these loss provisions in their portfolios, it might stop some of the hysterics when loans default and investors are somehow shocked they actually lose money.
|
|
dandy
Posts: 427
Likes: 341
|
Post by dandy on Jun 25, 2018 12:49:53 GMT
I'm of the opinion that P2P platforms should be forced to write down every loan to some degree using an accounting standard somewhat like IFRS9. That would require every loan at the point it is originated to be provided with a credit charge based on expected losses, and then these losses adjusted to reflect future economic conditions and the specifics of the loan (so once it's an NPL, the default probability is 100% and it's all about recovery). If self-select type investors saw these loss provisions in their portfolios, it might stop some of the hysterics when loans default and investors are somehow shocked they actually lose money. Is this not the RS model (possibly without the adjustments you refer to)? Investor rate + RS margin + PF margin = Borrower rate. And how would a platform add/reduce this amount to reflect economic conditions? Where would the money come from to adjust the amount "set aside" mid-loan?
|
|
SteveT
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,875
Likes: 7,924
|
Post by SteveT on Jun 25, 2018 13:02:21 GMT
It would come from the lender’s own capital and interest, and remain part of their account as their own “bad debt provision”. So a lender investing £10k in a range of 12% P2P loans, rather than being told they have £10k of loan parts expected to earn 12% interest over the year, would see that maybe 4% of their total was now reserved for projected bad debts, giving a likely 8% net return.
If projected returns worsened (defaults rose) then that 4% might be raised to 5%, 6%, ...
|
|
dandy
Posts: 427
Likes: 341
|
Post by dandy on Jun 25, 2018 13:24:40 GMT
Pure semantics in that case - seemingly designed to manage investor expectations. Whilst not a bad idea I dont think it will make investors any happier at ending up with 8% and not 12%. Also, it would only work properly if self-select investors were appropriately diversified within such platform. Not an easy task.
|
|
SteveT
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,875
Likes: 7,924
|
Post by SteveT on Jun 25, 2018 13:49:40 GMT
Or, looked at another way, automatically make prudent provision for the almost inevitable losses a P2P portfolio will incur. The point is that the headline 12% is an illusion. How often do we read on here yet another irate diatribe from a naive lender shocked to discover that the reason his P2P loan paid a high rate of interest is that it involved a high risk of default / loss?
|
|
daveb4
Member of DD Central
Posts: 220
Likes: 116
|
Post by daveb4 on Jun 25, 2018 19:40:04 GMT
'The point is that the headline 12% is an illusion'
Absolutely agree, It is important for any new lenders to be aware of the risk and headline rates are not real. You must factor in real losses as they will happen, but it is also elements of your portfolio that do not earn interest that you must also take into consideration.
|
|
|
Post by petebutt43 on Jul 2, 2018 0:59:57 GMT
Try one of the platforms that have Buy-back loan,s. like Mintos. You can have up to 20% non-performing, up to 60 days, then capital is refunded, so the Headline 12+% is what you get!! Currently I am running at 12.67% ACTUAL returns p.a.. Not to mention campaign rewards, which have boosted income over the last six months.
My Investments
514
Current € 4 989.79
Grace Period € 306.31
1-15 Days Late € 816.99
16-30 Days Late € 352.39
31-60 Days Late € 206.37
60+ Days Late € 0.00
Default € 3.15
Bad Debt (€ 0.00)
Total € 6 675.01
Net Annual Return
12.69%
Interest € 578.14
Late Payment Fees € 1.91
Bad Debt € 0.00
Secondary Market Transactions € -1.39
Service Fees € 0.00
Campaign Rewards € 258.26
Total Profit € 836.92
|
|