ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Jul 27, 2018 15:37:22 GMT
Did anyone pick up on the section regarding risks of platform failure where wind down might have different regulatory criteria? Specifically interest due from borrowers may not be treatable as client funds when paid.
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m2btj
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Post by m2btj on Jul 27, 2018 15:40:26 GMT
This is going to be some fun Friday afternoon reading. I'm pleased to see that the FCA is at least taking a deeper look into the sector. It's most certainly necessary. Will be interesting to see if these words turn into action. The UK Peer to Peer Finance Association (P2PFA) has released Q1 data for its member platforms. According to the industry association, P2P lending is nearing £9 billion in loan originations having provided finance for approximately 50,000 business and 221,000 individuals. Total investors stand at around 150,000.
A closer look at the sector is long overdue! Had this action been taken 12 months earlier we might not be mired in the debacle that was Col. The industry is investing some huge sums of investors hard earned cash & the buccaneering days of P2P must come to an end.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jul 27, 2018 16:13:58 GMT
Did anyone pick up on the section regarding risks of platform failure where wind down might have different regulatory criteria? Specifically interest due from borrowers may not be treatable as client funds when paid. Yes, one of the things I was totally unaware of.
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Jul 27, 2018 17:28:25 GMT
Despite the Apologists, Sympathisers & Shills it would seem that those who did indeed get off their backsides and Complain to The FCA may have actually had an effect and we may get some sort of a result. Of course all aforementioned Apologists, Sympathisers & Shills will also benefit from this as well, despite their seemingly negative attitudes and possible attempts at dissuasion from any Complaining action. Hopefully we will soon no longer have to put up with the lies & deceit and the " That's just the way it is" piss poor attitude. Just shows what can be achieved if you actually DO something and Complain, and I thank you all my Fellow Investors. Not sure if you are including me in that list, but if you don't trust that the management of a P2P company will treat you fairly you shouldn't invest in it. If you think this problem is rife you probably shouldn't invest in any P2P company. Whilst I would welcome a harmonisation of default and other definitions, I don't expect a few extra hoops to jump through or boxes to tick will make very much difference. And the companies I don't like now still won't be getting any of my money - even at 12%+. I hope a few rotten apples do get shut down, but I think that P2P will be a scary place for a few months if they do.
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Post by brightspark on Jul 27, 2018 17:34:03 GMT
" We are also proposing to define what constitutes default for the purposes of producing the outcomes statement using the definition in the Capital Requirements Regulation35 to ensure consistency across platforms. Under this definition, a loan would have defaulted when the borrower is past the contractual payment due date by more than 90 days, or 180 days for property loans". But would it mean that Platforms had to take positive steps to recover the money after marking the loan as Defaulted ?
I'm thinking of loans like AC's infamous loan #227 - was already 6 months late when AC allowed the Borrower to propose a vote granting them a 6-month interest free extension. To which the majority of Lenders unbelievably agreed !. The Loan is technically in 'default' but anybody's guess when AC might make a move to get the money repaid.
The money will never be repaid in full - the asset does not support the level of debt.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jul 27, 2018 17:44:31 GMT
Despite the Apologists, Sympathisers & Shills it would seem that those who did indeed get off their backsides and Complain to The FCA may have actually had an effect and we may get some sort of a result. Of course all aforementioned Apologists, Sympathisers & Shills will also benefit from this as well, despite their seemingly negative attitudes and possible attempts at dissuasion from any Complaining action. Hopefully we will soon no longer have to put up with the lies & deceit and the " That's just the way it is" piss poor attitude. Just shows what can be achieved if you actually DO something and Complain, and I thank you all my Fellow Investors.
One Happy OzBoy. I really object to the way lenders are characterised in this way Totally unacceptable.
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Post by samford71 on Jul 27, 2018 18:40:34 GMT
Some sensible stuff here from the FCA on a quick skim through. To be frank, however, they said some sensible stuff in prior reports about P2P lending in 2013-15. They then proceeded to completely forget these points and continued with the "light touch" regulation including daft ideas such as interim permission.
One of the key ideas seems that investors "be remunerated fairly for the risks they are taking" and "may pay excessive costs for a platform’s services". From my perspective, this all comes down to the high fees and spread margins some platforms charge. Asking investors to engage in highly speculative property developments (so speculative that 73+/80 major institutional lenders won't touch them) is bad enough. To then only pay them 12% out of the 20-30% the borrowers are paying really can only result in some fairly unpleasant outcomes. Borrower's can pay these rates because they have very little equity down i.e. constrained downside, but with huge upside (take Lendy's DFL004: the borrower initially risked £0.5mm but had £8mm upside, a 16:1 bet). These spec development loans are, in reality, hugely leveraged option structures for the developers. By comparison, investors are doing a classic carry trade, picking up pennies in front of an inevitable steamroller. It's crucial they are given a high degree of participation in the borrower's rate; they need every penny to make these trades work on a portfolio basis.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 19:38:02 GMT
That is an extremely detailed document... far better than anything I had hoped for from the FCA!
Of course, as some have noted, whether or not they have the will to enforce any of their proposed changes or minimise that long list of investor harms... this is another question entirely.
This is definitely going to take some time to go through in detail, but they seem to nail many of the key points about the fundamental nature of risk and how it is presented to investors.
I bet some platforms will be reading that list and getting a little bit nervous...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 20:16:21 GMT
Section 4.42 is interesting
Ongoing valuations - We have observed a number of instances among P2P platforms where loans are being transferred to investors in a way that transfers value inappropriately.
... and goes on to talk about the reassignment of loans between investors... ie the secondary market from what I can tell. But also automatic portfolio assignments between new/exiting investors as well I assume.
It seems to be very disapproving of any kind of transfer that does not fully price in the risk profile at the time of transfer... which sounds great, but seems very negative for par-only secondary markets and portfolio transfers if taken on a strict interpretation
And yet, a variable pricing secondary market opens up far more avenues of harm via internal conflicts of interest etc... such as the section on company staff transacting on secondary markets with privileged information, and all the possible market abuses that are possible via price. Plus the onus on platforms to ensure the price is 'correct', or all information required to establish a 'correct' price is available.
And thats just one tiny section, the possible consequences for platforms have my head spinning.
There is a heck of a lot to think about in this document, thats for sure!
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ozboy
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Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
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Post by ozboy on Jul 27, 2018 20:48:39 GMT
Unfortunately bigfoot12 yours is exactly the sort of attitude that is aiding and abetting the less than honest Platforms and allowing them to continue flourishing.
Fortunately however most on here want the industry cleaned up, for the benefit of all.
[ EDIT / PS: As has been said on here before, the dodgy Platforms love contributions like yours bigfoot12. ]
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zlb
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Post by zlb on Jul 27, 2018 22:34:24 GMT
FCA have published their consultation document on review of P2P rules
Biggest thing is potential application of restricted investor rules to P2P loan platforms
thanks. I wouldn't have known about this if it weren't put here...
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zlb
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Post by zlb on Jul 27, 2018 22:37:19 GMT
So this is a consultation document. Who are they consulting? Lenders?
I wonder how many replies they need to institute changes. Is that how it works? Wouldn't it be quicker if they had an online survey yes/no/amend on each point...
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macq
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Post by macq on Jul 27, 2018 22:43:27 GMT
Only had time to skim but its nice to see provision funds being looked at and hopefully a standard being applied across all platforms who offer it would be good. Have wondered before now and i know its unlikely but looking far into the future i.e 25/50 years what happens to the money if platform builds up a provision fund and is not using it? (Know it would be a miracle but don't laugh it could happen you have the likes of Landbay with no defaults yet and assets to reclaim and still a provision fund)
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Jul 27, 2018 23:26:53 GMT
So this is a consultation document. Who are they consulting? Lenders? I wonder how many replies they need to institute changes. Is that how it works? Wouldn't it be quicker if they had an online survey yes/no/amend on each point... Stakeholders ... basically anyone - primarily platforms, lenders, borrowers, people in industry, consumer orgs, anyone with a view.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Jul 28, 2018 13:37:08 GMT
But would it mean that Platforms had to take positive steps to recover the money after marking the loan as Defaulted ?
I'm thinking of loans like AC's infamous loan #227 - was already 6 months late when AC allowed the Borrower to propose a vote granting them a 6-month interest free extension. To which the majority of Lenders unbelievably agreed !. The Loan is technically in 'default' but anybody's guess when AC might make a move to get the money repaid.
The money will never be repaid in full - the asset does not support the level of debt. Imo 'solvent recovery' is indistinguishable from 'no recovery at all', keep kicking the can down the road each 3-6 months, claiming organization XYX is working on the sale of asset ABC (which will never happen as it's been like that for the best part of a year).
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